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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 20: Electronic Edition

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 1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4 Tuesday, 15th February 2000
 5
 6Before:
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY
 8
 9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
10Claimant -and-
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
13Defendants
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
20
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
24
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY
26

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 1 <Day 20 Tuesday, 15th February 2000.
 2 < Professor Evans, recalled.
 3< Cross-Examined by Mr Irving, continued.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving?
 5 MR IRVING:     May it please the court. I have placed in your
 6Lordship's bundle F a continuation of about 20 or 30
 7pages, and I have also provided your Lordship, as you have
 8just noticed, with a copy of Nuremberg to which we were
 9referring to yesterday.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I see that. Thank you.
11 MR IRVING:     And if we can just take up one or two of the points
12your Lordship requested yesterday? Your Lordship
13requested a copy of what the pull-down menu says. That is
14in the bundle which I have just given you, bundle F. It
15is at the back of bundle F which your Lordship was using
16yesterday.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The pull-down menu, where do I find that?
18 MR IRVING:     If you go to page 93 of bundle F, my Lord, it
19should be -- unless the numbering has gone wrong.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I had this in a different form yesterday, did
21I not, from Mr Rampton?
22 MR IRVING:     Well, I did not have it yesterday from Mr Rampton.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Did you not? Well, I got something.
24 MR IRVING:     It is difficult to obtain, but that is the works of
25it, in what is called HTML.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Having looked through it, whilst we are on

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 1this, it did appear to me that whatever their titles may
 2be, they are mostly Jewish organisations of one kind or
 3another.
 4 MR IRVING:     My Lord, that is not correct. If you look at the
 5list, there are 16 items, of which seven are not, if I can
 6put it like that.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I do not think we have 16.
 8 MR IRVING:     That is precisely why your Lordship should be
 9looking at my pull-down menu rather than the one given to
10you. Shall I read through them?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that would serve any
12particularly useful purpose.
13 MR IRVING:     No. But your Lordship will notice the Australian
14Government, the Centre for Democratic Renewal, the
15Coalition for Human Dignity, the German Government.
16 MR RAMPTON:     There are only two I think that are not Jewish, my
17Lord.
18 MR IRVING:     Searchlight ----
19 MR RAMPTON:     Two National Governments.
20 MR IRVING:     Well, Mr Rampton, if you would just allow me to
21finish reading out those that are not Jewish that are on
22the list?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You read out the ones you say are not Jewish.
24 MR IRVING:     I will start again. Australian Government, Centre
25for Democratic Renewal.
26 MR RAMPTON:     That is Jewish.

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 1 MR IRVING:     I beg your pardon?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     It is Jewish.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let him read them, Mr Rampton, then we can
 4debate it further, if needs be.
 5 MR IRVING:     Coalition for Human Dignity, the German Government,
 6Searchlight, and Surf Watch Internet Censorship.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 8 MR IRVING:     Each of those, if you would click on that, you
 9would come to a subindex, my Lord, which has the actual
10documents which qualified for inclusion in the list of
11enemies of free speech.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I think this is in a way dicing with
13words because I have actually got the indices supplied
14yesterday. It appears to me, without knowing in detail
15what the individual items on the indices are, that really
16all of these organizations, there is a great deal of
17interplay, put it like that, between these organizations
18and what you would, perhaps, describe as the Jewish
19lobby. Is that not fair?
20 MR IRVING:     In some of the documents quite clearly there is, in
21some of the documents listed on the index, and, obviously,
22I then have to make the point that this is a website which
23has been set up in response to the attack on me.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I follow.
25 MR IRVING:     So, clearly, this is not a global attempt to
26address all the world enemies of free speech when,

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 1undoubtedly, you bring in the Chinese Government and all
 2sorts of other ghastly organizations, but these are the
 3bodies that have impinged on my professional career. That
 4is why they figure on my personal list of traditional
 5enemies of free speech.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that. I think I interrupted
 7Mr Rampton. Did you want to add anything?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I was just going to say, Mr Irving has identified
 9as being not Jewish I think four that, in fact, are
10Jewish. The only two that are not that we can tell are
11the Australian and the German governments.
12 MR IRVING:     Perhaps you should say which of the four that you
13consider are Jewish.
14 MR RAMPTON:     All the rest are Jewish.
15 MR IRVING:     Centre for Democratic Renewal?
16 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
17 MR IRVING:     A Jewish body?
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes -- so I am told.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We may or may not come back to that at some
20later stage. Let us leave it for the moment. I cannot
21actually find my bundle F.
22 MR IRVING:     I asked your clerk, my Lord, this morning to put
23the fresh documents into it.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I then think I said not for the time being
25until I know that is what everybody thinks is right.
26 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship will need bundle F9, in fact.

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