Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 16: Electronic Edition

Pages 1 - 176 of 176

1996 I. No. 113
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4 Monday, 7th February 2000
10Claimant -and-
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)

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 1 Day 16 Monday, 7th February 2000.
 2 (10.30 a.m.)
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving and Mr Rampton, I have received a
 4letter from I think it is a German lawyer called Gunter
 5Murmann, the significance of which is not immediately
 6obvious to me, but I thought I had better hand it down to
 7you to make what you will of it. I know you have been
 8receiving a lot of similar documents. Have a look at it
 9when you have a convenient moment. Yes, Mr Irving?
10 MR IRVING:     May it please the court. I have here this morning
11a witness on summons, Sir John Keegan. I also have a
12number of points that I wish to submit to your Lordship.
13I think, out of fairness to Sir John Keegan, we ought to
14hear his evidence first, and then I will put to your
15Lordship the various procedural points which I wish to.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That sounds perfectly sensible. Let us have
17him straightaway.
18 MR IRVING:     I call Sir John Keegan.
19 < SIR JOHN KEEGAN, sworn.
20< Examined by MR IRVING.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, Sir John's evidence will go entirely to
22reputation and no other matter in this court. Sir John,
23first of all, to make it perfectly plain to the court, you
24are here pursuant to a witness summons, in other words,
25what used to be called a subpoena. Is that correct?
26 A. [Sir John Keegan]     I was subpoenaed by you. I would also like to say that

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 1until this moment I have never met you, never spoken to
 2you and never corresponded with you.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is precisely what I was going to ask next. In other
 4words, I have not rehearsed with you in any way what
 5I might or might not ask you by way of questions?
 6 A. [Sir John Keegan]     I would not have agreed to that in any case.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, of course.
 8 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Sir John, you are now Defence Correspondent for Telegraph
 9Newspapers Limited?
10 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Defence Editor.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Defence Editor of Telegraph Newspapers Limited. How long
12have you held that post, please?
13 A. [Sir John Keegan]     I was Defence Correspondent to begin with in 1986 and
14became Defence Editor about 1990.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have, it is fair to say, a very high reputation in
16England as what I might call an establishment historian?
17 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Well, I was knighted for services to military history
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     My congratulations and the congratulations of the court go
19to you for that very recent honour. It was in the New
20Year's Honours list?
21 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not wish to detain you at all long, Sir John, here
23this morning. I am grateful to you for coming in spite of
24your disability. I just want to take you through a number
25of papers which I have handed to you a few minutes ago
26going back to 1980. I believe your Lordship also has that

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 1small clip of them?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I do. Thank you very much.
 3 MR IRVING:     Do you remember writing an article for The Times
 4Literary Supplement in about April 1980?
 5 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes, I do not, because I review a great deal, but I am
 6quite sure that I did write what is quoted here.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it right that in that review you wrote -- this is a
 8review of another book, not a book by myself?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, both, is it not?.
10 A. [Sir John Keegan]     I am sorry, I did not understand the question.
11 MR IRVING:     This was not reviewing a book by me, was it? It
12was reviewing some other book.
13 A. [Sir John Keegan]     If you say so.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it right that you wrote the following words: "Two
15books in English stand out from the vast literature of the
16Second World War, Chester Wilmott, 'Struggle for Europe'
17published in 1952 and David Irving's 'Hitler's War' which
18appeared three years ago"?
19 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes, and that is my general opinion. I think that, taken
20together, they are -- if I were to recommend to a starter
21two books which would explain the Second World War from
22Hitler's side and from the Allies' side, those are the two
23books I would choose.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     This does not, of course, mean that you endorse or accept
25all the views that I might be held to propagate in them or
26not, or otherwise?

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 1 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Indeed not, because later on in the papers you have given
 2me I reprove you for your lack of a moral point of view in
 3your discussion of Hitler and of his status relative to
 4Churchill and Roosevelt.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it right to say that this opinion which you expressed
 6in that review was not only publicly held but also
 7privately held by yourself?
 8 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes. I often say you have to read Hitler's War.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I draw your attention to letter No. 2 in the bundle?
10This is a letter from a man called Mr Alan Williams?
11 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes, he used to be my editor at the Viking Press, my
12American publishers.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The late Alan Williams was also my editor, of
14course, so he knew us both. Is it true that sometime
15early in 1980 you had a conversation with our mutual
16friend, Alan Williams, in which you commented on the same
17book 'Hitler's War'? Will you read, please, the middle
18sentences of the second paragraph? Does he state ----
19 A. [Sir John Keegan]     "John Keegan is, as you may know, writing a book for us on
20the D-day invasion. While we were talking about it, he
21said that there were two general survey books that really
22stood head and shoulders above all the rest, one of them
23the Chester Wilmott and the other 'Hitler's War'".
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     He did not know ----
25 A. [Sir John Keegan]     "He did not know I had any involvement with the latter
26volume when he said this".

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you very much. Were you expressing your true
 2opinion in that conversation with Mr Wilmott?
 3 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Of course.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Has he accurately reflected in this letter what your
 5opinion was at that time?
 6 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes. Alan Williams and I were great friends.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, he was a man of insight and perception. In fact,
 8I gave him a silver tray from Harrods inscribed for his
 9bravery in publishing my book. He had it displayed in his
10office. Would you turn to page 5, Sir John?
11 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this a panel from the Sunday Telegraph of August last
14 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it headed "Book of the Century"?
16 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you there make your choice of which book you considered
18to be the book of the last century?
19 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you remember what book that was?
21 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Of course, it is a 'Struggle for Europe'. I regard it as
22a slightly odd choice, and I do not expect many people to
23support me, but it happens to have been an enormously
24informative influence on me.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I also read it. I agree with you, for what it is worth.
26It is a very fine book indeed. So your opinion on the

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 1Chester Wilmott book had not at that time changed?
 2 A. [Sir John Keegan]     No.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     You still rank it among the highest. Finally, would you
 4turn to pages 6 and 7 which, I am afraid, is the only copy
 5I have of a two page extract from your recent book 'The
 6Battle for History'.
 7 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you agree that in that you repeat once again, 16
 9years after the first time you expressed this opinion ----
10 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes, I do.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- that Hitler's War was a valuable book?
12 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Indeed, you are honest enough to include a message on the
13Internet which points out that you omitted ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     One sentence, yes, in the bundle. Would you read out that
15sentence too perhaps, for the record? This is somebody
16writing an e-mail to me, chiding me.
17 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Could I quote the whole thing?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It would help me if you did because I am not
19sure which sentence has been omitted from what.
20 MR IRVING:     I am not sure if it is in your Lordship's bundle.
21It would be page 10 if it is in your Lordship's bundle.
22Do you have page 10?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I do.
24 MR IRVING:     Would you read out that brief message on page 10
25from a correspondent?
26 A. [Sir John Keegan]     It is a message from somebody called Graham Broad on a web

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 1site, dated 28th December 1999: "If Mr Irving is going to
 2quote John Keegan when Keegan supports him, he might as
 3well have the integrity to quote him when Keegan does
 4not. He cites at length from Keegan's'The Battle for
 5History', but does not, to my knowledge, anywhere on this
 6web site quote Keegan's remark on page 10 of that book.
 7Some controversies are entirely bogus, like David Irving's
 8contention that Hitler's subordinates kept from the fact
 9of the Final Solution".
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is, of course, still your opinion, is it not?
11 A. [Sir John Keegan]     I am sorry?
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is, of course, still your opinion, is it not, that
13I am wrong on the Holocaust, or that my opinion on that is
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That Hitler did not know.
16 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Well, I read Hitler's War, the appropriate passages, very
17carefully over the weekend, and I continue to think it
18perverse of you to propose that Hitler could not have
19known until as late as October 1943 what was going on to
20the Jewish population of Europe, and indeed many other
21minority groups as well, not only minority groups.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not accept your word "perverse", of course. We have
23spent many weeks here in this very room, examining how
24perverse or otherwise it is to put forward that
25proposition. Would you accept that, to somebody who has
26not had complete access to all the records that are now

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 1correctly available, it may still seem an unusual opinion?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is almost by definition an impossible
 3question for him to answer.
 4 MR IRVING:     It became rather tortuous in the utterance, I am
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think, bringing yourself up to date with
 7historical knowledge as it has been emerging, do you still
 8retain the view that it is perverse to say that Hitler did
 9not know about the Final Solution?
10 A. [Sir John Keegan]     I think, my Lord, that it defies common sense.
11 MR IRVING:     It does indeed defy common sense, and this is what
12makes it such a fascinating subject to investigate. Would
13you agree with that? If it turned out to be against all
14common sense and yet not demonstrable, would it be worth
16 A. [Sir John Keegan]     It would be so extraordinary that it would defy reason.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     I agree, "extraordinary" is possibly a better description
18of this conclusion than "perverse". Perverse, would you
19agree, implies a wilfulness, a deliberate tendentiousness
20in the way one looks at the documentation?
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, wrong headed, I think is the meaning.
22 MR IRVING:     Wrong headed, yes. Can I ask you finally to turn
23to pages 8 and 9? My Lord, the only reason this is
24included is this is one way of putting this before your
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.

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 1 MR IRVING:     Are you familiar with the United States Holocaust
 2Memorial Museum?
 3 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Well, I have passed it. I have not been in.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you accept that this is an official history
 5published by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
 6by its former director, Michael Berenbaum?
 7 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sure I will be corrected by Mr Rampton if that is
 9wrong. Would you turn to page 9?
10 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you accept that Professor Aberhard Jackel is a
12leading German historian?
13 A. [Sir John Keegan]     I am never heard of him, but then I am a military
14historian of a rather technical sort and it is not
15necessary that I should have heard of him.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Could I ask you briefly to read the paragraph number 5,
17beginning with the words "rehearsal for destruction" and
18I will ask you a question about it. Just read it to
20 A. [Sir John Keegan]     (Pause for reading) Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that the tenor of that passage is that
22this German Professor is stating that, until my biography
23of Hitler was published in 1977, there had been no worth
24while research on the Holocaust, and that the publication
25of my book provoked the historians of the world into
26finally doing the research on that subject?

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 1 A. [Sir John Keegan]     I do not think I can agree with that. As an under
 2graduate I think I read what I still think is a remarkable
 3book called the Final Solution by Gerald Reitlinger, and
 4I felt that I have learned from Gerald Reitlinger
 5everything substantial that I know about the Holocaust.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of course.
 7 A. [Sir John Keegan]     And that not much has been added to that since.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     There has been a book by Raul Hilberg in the interim as
 9well, 'The Destruction of European Jewry'?
10 A. [Sir John Keegan]     There have been an enormous number of books on the
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not before 1977.
13 A. [Sir John Keegan]     I am sorry, it is not my subject. I do not know the
14unrolling of the historiography of the subject in that
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     My question to you, Sir John, was, would you agree that
17the tenor of this paragraph is to suggest that, in the
18eyes of this leading German historian, that, until my book
19on Hitler was published, there was no worth while research
20into the Holocaust, and that triggered, with this
21outrageous hypothesis, as he puts it, the entire research
22which has developed since then?
23 A. [Sir John Keegan]     I do not know. I could not endorse that. I do not know
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     You appreciate my question? I am not asking your opinion,
26I am asking whether this----

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us cut this short. It obviously says
 2what you have just indicated it says, but Sir John is not
 3able to agree with it from what he knows.
 4 MR IRVING:     Very well. Sir John, finally I had to coerce you
 5into the witness box, although in the 1980s and 1990s you
 6wrote very favourable things about my writings. Can you
 7in a very brief sentence explain why you were unwilling to
 8come voluntarily?
 9 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Yes. Briefly, perhaps not. Just because I admire
10Hitler's War, which I do, I admired it again when I was
11reading it last night, it does not mean to say that
12I endorse your opinions beyond what you have to say, about
13what I am interested in in Hitler's War, which is your
14picture of how Hitler conducted military operations. As a
15military historian, that is the sort of history in which
16I am interested and I think you do it extremely well in
17Hitler's War. That does that not mean to say that I can
18go further in following you. It seemed to me this was to
19be a very contentious case, and one is easily
20misunderstood, I think, in discussion of this dreadful
21episode, this terrible period in European history, easily
22misunderstood. I did not wish to put myself in a position
23where I might be misunderstood.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would be it fair to say that you were apprehensive about
25the repercussions of giving evidence on my behalf?
26 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Naturally. I am not giving on your behalf.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Giving evidence as a witness for the claimant?
 2 A. [Sir John Keegan]     Under subpoena.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. No. The question was ----
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is a slightly meaningless debate. Sir
 5John is right. He is here compulsoriy, not voluntarily.
 6He has no choice but to answer your questions, which he
 7has done very clearly.
 8 MR IRVING:     The evidence I was trying to produce here was
 9evidence of the fact that this is an exposed position that
10one takes, and that there are professional repercussions
11which can be expected by those who take this position in
12view of the very unfortunate nature this debate has
13adopted. It is very difficult for me to produce evidence
14on that matter, particularly as a lot of the witnesses are
15not going to be called.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If I may say so, it is a point that does not
17really need evidence. I am not blind to the realities of
18the position and I understand the point you are putting.
19 MR IRVING:     I am indebted to your Lordship and in that case I
20have no further questions.
21 MR RAMPTON:     I have no questions.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sir John, that finishes your time in the
23witness box. Thank you very much. You are free to go.
24 < (The witness stood down)
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I think you have some procedural
26points to make?

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 1 MR IRVING:     Yes.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before you do that, can I just ask you where,
 3if anywhere, you are suggesting I put the clip you have
 4just handed in?
 5 MR IRVING:     Miss Rogers has generated a catalogue of these
 6stray items and no doubt the catalogue will grow longer.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think they might say they are their stray
 8items. Shall we put this into one of the C bundles,
 9perhaps C4?
10 MR RAMPTON:     Back of J2 is suggested.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is really your documents, is it not?
12 MR RAMPTON:     No. Ours are L.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You probably claim J, too, do you not?
14I will put it wherever you suggest.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I do not have one, so I cannot really help.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not have one either. J2?
17 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, something called J2.
18 MR RAMPTON:     It is Claimants Bundle E, Global, which apparently
19is in J2. Why, I do not know.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If there is a J2, which I doubt, I would like
21one. Yes, Mr Irving?
22 MR IRVING:     My Lord, your Lordship will see that I have
23provided to you once again a number of newspaper articles.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
25 MR IRVING:     I do not know how far I am testing your Lordship's
26patience on this matter, but I am a litigant in person and

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 1I certainly need education on this matter and possibly
 2members of the press also need education as to what is
 3permissible and what is not in a non-jury action.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, show me.
 5 MR IRVING:     I am not familiar with any ruling which says in a
 6non-jury action it is open season on one or other of the
 7parties in an action.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Certainly that is right. It is not. On the
 9other hand, it is presumed -- you may or may not agree
10with it -- that judges are more able to ignore what is
11written outside court and more able to focus on the
12evidence. I hope I am doing that, which I have slightly
13discouraged you in the past when you have raised various
14newspaper articles. I cannot obviously tell the press
15what they should and should not say, but show me what you
16are objecting to because, if you have a point----
17 MR IRVING:     I will provide your Lordship with three articles
18which I certainly do not expect you to read in an
19instant. Two are, in fact, from newspapers produced by
20Guardian Newspapers. One is the Guardian which was
21published on Saturday, a major article by a man called
22Jonathan Friedland, who is a very well-known and very
23responsible journalist. The other one is an article
24published in The Observer yesterday. The one published in
25The Observer yesterday by Mr Neil Acheson seems to equate
26David Irving, Jorg Haider and Adolf Hitler in a rather

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 1unbecoming manner. "If Irving wins and Heider wins, then
 2what?" I have also highlighted "Niematz Wieder never again
 3and Den Anfenge, stop it at the start", what used to be
 4called in Latin I believe principe obstat. The repugnance
 5of those articles is that of course the Guardian Newspaper
 6are Defendants in a second action I am bringing of a very
 7similar nature, which they maintain is of a similar
 8nature, and they have a clear and vested interest, in
 9fact, in trying to see me knocked out in this action.
10Then, slightly more sinister and more difficult to
11control, I appreciate, by your Lordship are the articles
12being written by London journalists for the foreign press
13which then come bouncing back to us through Cyber space.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Probably not bouncing back to all that many
15people, would they be? National Post?. I have never
16heard it.
17 MR IRVING:     It is a major Toronto newspaper published by Conrad
18Black in conjunction with the Daily Telegraph. Article
19called "David Irving versus The Dead", written by a man
20called Geoffrey Wheatcroft, who is a British, London based
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which bit in this?
23 MR IRVING:     Well, the whole article is sinister in as much as
24it also incorporates a number of items that have so far
25not been produced in court, including privileged items,
26and this morning in today's Ottawa Sun, I believe, there

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 1were also quotations from Professor Richard Evans' report,
 2which is a highly libelous and defamatory document and it
 3is privileged only when used in connection with a report
 4in the case.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, this discussion is becoming unwieldy for
 6two reasons. One is that I am excluded from it because
 7I do not have what Mr Irving is referring to. The other
 8is that the reason why people have access to Professor
 9Evans' report is that Mr Irving put it on his web site.
10 MR IRVING:     With a severe health warning, warning people that
11the entire contents of the report are considered to be
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are the entire contents of the report on your
14web site?
15 MR IRVING:     They are accessible with a password. There is a
16health warning that flaps down so that anybody who looks
17at it is warned in advance that the contents are deemed to
18be defamatory and untrue, and will be established when we
19have Evans in the box.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have not read these obviously because you
21have just presented me with them. All I would say,
22subject to anything Mr Rampton wants to say afterwards, is
23that it is not open season and, in particular, if
24journalists who are based here choose to write in foreign
25publications articles which perhaps do create a risk of
26prejudice, then they must realize that they may be

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 1amenable to this court's jurisdiction, albeit that the
 2publication in question occurred abroad. But beyond that
 3I am slightly reluctant to get into this because it is a
 4bit of a diversion. I can certainly understand you get
 5fed up with it. It is not going to affect my mind, that
 6is the point.
 7 MR IRVING:     I am faced here by extremely powerful and wealthy
 8litigants who have expended a lot of effort in posting a
 9defence to this case, and more than that I will not say,
10my Lord.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
12 MR IRVING:     In that case I do not ask your Lordship to read the
13articles. I think that has now dealt with that.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will glance at them or, if you rather,
15I will not, whichever.
16 MR IRVING:     By uttering your warning that it is not open season
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton may disagree with that as a matter
19of law.
20 MR RAMPTON:     It is open season. I believe, there being no
21jury, it is open season except in one respect. It would
22not be right and would be a contempt of court to put
23direct or indirect pressure on the litigant or any of his
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
26 MR RAMPTON:     It is also of course if they were saying terrible

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 1thing about your Lordship. That could theoretically
 2become contempt, but I do not believe that is what we are
 3talking about. Otherwise not.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not so sure about that. If you write
 5here for publication in a journal which you know is going
 6to come back, it seems to me that that could amount to a
 7contempt. This is a very gentle warning shot over the
 9 MR RAMPTON:     It would depend on the content.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course.
11 MR RAMPTON:     That which is merely, what shall we say,
12tendentious in its reporting?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It has to establish a substantial risk of
14serious prejudice.
15 MR RAMPTON:     It would have to be such material that Mr Irving
16said in honesty to your Lordship, "I really do not think I
17can continue under this kind of fusillage".
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It may not have to go quite as far as that.
19 MR IRVING:     I can give one example of the kind of pressure that
20we come under by virtue of the press reporting now. The
21principal of the school attended by my little girl, the
22ballet school, well, enough.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That sort of thing must be personally
24upsetting for you but it cannot possibility affect my mind
25because I do not know anything about it.
26 MR IRVING:     If ordinary citizens are affected in this way by

.   P-19

 1this abusive press coverage even at this stage in the
 2case, then eventually this will mean that the entire
 3public gallery of this court will be affected by it, and
 4waves of hostility will be felt by the members of this
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, all I would say is that, as long
 7as you can carry on, which you are doing, despite what you
 8are having to put up with, then I hope you will find me
 9approaching the evidence unaffected by anything that may
10be published in newspapers.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Can I add this? If the public's mind is affected
12adversely to Mr Irving by a fair and accurate report of
13the proceedings in court, then only Mr Irving has himself
14to blame.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That of course is true, but I think his
16complaint is that these are things that are said or
17published which really do not reflect in any way the
18proceedings in court. That I think is his complaint.
19 MR RAMPTON:     The only one of those things that I have read is
20the Guardian article and, so far as that is concerned,
21I would not agree.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have not read it.
23 MR IRVING:     My Lord, a number of newspapers are prejudging the
24issue and, as your Lordship is aware, we are just at the
25watershed, so to speak. We are now beginning to hear the
26defence witnesses in detail.

.   P-20

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. They do not have the last word, though,
 2do they?
 3 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I now turn to the question of these very
 4witnesses, once again the non-appearing experts, the
 5witnesses whom we are informed on Thursday would not now
 6be being called. Once again, I am asking for your
 7Lordship's tutelage as to in what manner I can address the
 8matters that they have raised in their expert reports,
 9using the abundance of material that we have developed.
10These witnesses have in some part relied on witness
11statements put in lower down the hierarchy, so to speak,
12which I also impugn. There is one famous case of one of
13the witnesses who accused me of having the skin heads at
14one of my meetings, who himself turned out to police
15records as a skinhead gang leader. There is no way that
16I can put that kind of material before your Lordship
17because these witnesses are not now going to be called.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, the way I would suggest, I am not
19saying this would necessarily, as it were, work but these
20are things you would have wanted to put to Eatwell and
21Levin, I suppose?
22 MR IRVING:     Eatwell and Levin, for example, yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You probably can put -- I do not know what
24you are talking about -- some of the things you were going
25to put to them to one of the other experts.
26 MR IRVING:     That is what I hope to do, but your Lordship will

.   P-21

 1appreciate it is going to be difficult, for example, now
 2that we know that the Russian witnesses are not going to
 3be coming, we had an abundance of questions that I
 4intended to put to them, for example, about the legality
 5or the legitimacy of their holdings of these papers under
 6The Hague rules, materials like that, and the conditions
 7which rule in the Russian archives, how accessible they
 8are to other historians, things that would have assisted
 9your Lordship in forming an opinion and I am just ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can give that evidence yourself. You
11have been there.
12 MR IRVING:     Yes. Well, some of that evidence, yes, my Lord,
13but it is difficult because I have the last word in this
14case, my closing speech, it would be improper, indeed
15unfair, for me to adduce or lead that kind of evidence in
16a closing speech without having tested it in any way.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, no, you could not do it in your -- you
18would have to give evidence, as it were, from the witness
19box first. Try putting the material to whichever you
20think is the most appropriate expert who is being called.
21Mr Rampton has been, I think, fairly liberal in the sense
22he has not objected when he might otherwise have done
23because this is such a curious case, it is all experts.
24So try to do it that way. I think you will find that you
25will get your point over.
26 MR IRVING:     This is a little bit of red flag waving so that

.   P-22

 1your Lordship understands why sometimes I am putting
 2material to witnesses when you think to yourself, "Well,
 3this is not covered by this witness's statement".
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. You have put things to Sir John Keegan
 5which you would not in an ordinary case have had the right
 6to put to him, but nobody objected and the points got
 7other to me.
 8 MR IRVING:     I am indebted.
 9     The third point, my Lord, concerns the snatch of
10remarks by me from the Errol Morris film which your
11Lordship may remember, the film 'Mr Death'. It was put to
12your Lordship as a transcript of fragments of remarks by
13me on the question of what generates anti-Semitism, where
14does anti-Semitism come from?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is this the National Alliance?
16 MR IRVING:     No, it was the other little thing that they put in
17afterwards. I think Miss Rogers is probably looking for
18it. It was, I think, highly prejudicial. There is one
19sentence in there which actually reads, "I am a racist"
20and taken, of course, out of context that sentence can be
21flung at me around the world and, no doubt, will be.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well...
23 MR IRVING:     What I am asking your Lordship is that I should
24either see the film or have a much longer transcript of
25those remarks in ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That sounds to me entirely fair.

.   P-23

 1 MR IRVING:     --- continuous form because the problem was in that
 2particular fragment of conversation, Errol Morris, the
 3producer, asked me to role play, so to speak. "Imagine
 4yourself in that position and state what your motives
 5would be".
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry, I have already said whenever you feel
 7that the context puts a different spin on the part that
 8the Defendants are relying on, you are perfectly entitled
 9to draw my attention to the context.
10 MR IRVING:     It was not actually a piece used in the film. It
11was a piece that they picked up, the Defendants picked up,
12off the cutting room floor, so to speak, and then
13wiped off and produced for your Lordship's delectation.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I cannot at the moment claim to remember
15which bit it is.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I will tell your Lordship where to find it. It
17has been in the files since goodness knows. It was a late
18arrival in the sense that it was not in the original
19file. It is at tab 9 of the bundle K4, and a complete
20transcript of the whole untransmitted or pretransmission
21interview is in that tab transcribed by the court
22transcribers. Mr Irving has had the tape as well.
23 MR IRVING:     Do we not have the film of it?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the film going to add which is not in
25the transcript, Mr Irving?
26 MR IRVING:     Unfortunately, this tape is, I believe I am right

.   P-24

 1in saying, very fragmentary. It jumps and stops and
 2starts in the way that things do that are taken off a
 3cutting room floor.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it looks to me like a complete
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I am told it is a complete transcript.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There we are. You have it there. You can
 8ask the Defendants if they will provide you with the tape
 9or you can read it into the transcript, Mr Irving, but
10I do not think I can do anything about it, can I?
11 MR IRVING:     Reverting to the witness statement of Professor van
12Pelt, my Lord, again a general question: we covered parts
13of that in the cross-examination and I think your Lordship
14welcomed the fact that I did not intend to go through it
15paragraph by paragraph. How much attention is your
16Lordship going to pay to the paragraphs that we did not
17test under cross-examination?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am a little troubled by this, but the way
19I think it is right to deal with the parts that you were
20not cross-examined on, that is to say, those parts of
21Professor van Pelt's expert report which did not form any
22part of Mr Rampton's cross-examination of you, I am
23treating as not being part of the Defence of
24Justification, unless and until they crop up in the
25evidence of other witnesses ----
26 MR IRVING:     For example ----

.   P-25

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- as a result of their being cross-examined
 2by you.
 3 MR IRVING:     --- the testimony of the Commandant of Auschwitz,
 4Rudolf Hoess, was hardly tested, I believe -- and
 5Mr Rampton?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, we have had enough on Rudolf Hoess to
 7make him part of the Defence of Justification. He is --
 8you have been cross-examined about this -- one of the camp
 9officials, or the camp official, on whom the Defendants
10place really most reliance, I think it is fair to say.
11 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, the position at Auschwitz is quite
12different from the rest of the case. Van Pelt contains
13the evidence that a responsible historian would have
14looked at as a minimum. Mr Irving has made it perfectly
15clear that until this case came along he has never looked
16at it. It is the convergence of all the evidence in van
17Pelt that makes the case that Mr Irving should have known
18about before he jumped on the Leuchter bandwagon. So the
19whole of that is before your Lordship. Evans is quite
20different. If I do not cross-examine on parts of Evans,
21your Lordship can probably assume that I do not pursue
22them, but not so with van Pelt.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that in a way that is a correction of
24what I have just said. I think you will find that already
25reflected on the transcript is the proposition that the
26Defendants do not have to go through each individual

.   P-26

 1eyewitness, for example, or each individual document
 2relating to the construction of Auschwitz, although we
 3have had quite a lot of it, because they say that is the
 4totality of the evidence you ought to have looked at.
 5     The distinction Mr Rampton draws is between
 6that, on the one hand, and, on the other hand, criticisms
 7of you for perverting the historical record, mostly in
 8'Hitler's War', which they are only entitled to rely on
 9if they put it to you fair and square in
10cross-examination, and that is a fair correction ----
11 MR IRVING:     I am startled by this distinction between the two
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it relates really to the nature of the
14criticism that is made. In relation to perversion of the
15historical record, a positive case is made against you,
16you have deliberately done this, you have deliberately
17manipulated the data, and Mr Rampton has put that, he has
18not put the whole of Evans' report, but he has put a lot
19of it. So that is the kind criticism made there.
20     But in relation to Auschwitz, as I understand
21it, it is really a rather different criticism. It is that
22you have taken a perverse view which ignores and flies in
23the face of the totality of evidence that there was
24gassing at Auschwitz. So do you follow why it is a
25different kind of case?
26 MR IRVING:     I appreciate what Mr Rampton and your Lordship are

.   P-27

 1trying to say, but your Lordship will remember quite
 2clearly that on more than one occasion I asked the
 3witness, "Are these the eyewitnesses that you are relying
 4on? Are there any more?" We had dealt, I think, by that
 5time with five and he quite clearly said, no, there are no
 6more that he was relying on at that point.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not quite.
 8 MR IRVING:     And I think it is perverse now for Mr Rampton to
 9say, yes, but what about Hoess or what about Aumeier or
10what about the others who are in the written report, but
11who the witness was inviting me not to cross-examine him
12on, shall I put it that way?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think, I hope, I accurately reflect
14Professor van Pelt's evidence when I say this, that in
15relation to inmates' eyewitness evidence, he was inclined
16to rely only on the very early reports, because he
17accepted the possibility of cross-pollination and
18contamination, or whatever you would like to call it, with
19the later ones. But in relation to camp officials, I do
20not think he ever said that he was discarding any of them,
21as it were, as some support for the proposition that there
22was gassing there. That is my broad recollection of his
24 MR IRVING:     Well, in my closing speech I may have to remind
25your Lordship of the actual words. Your Lordship will
26probably remember that I also said to him, "How many

.   P-28

 1survivors were there?" and we came to several thousand.
 2I said, "Why have you always then picked on just those
 3five? Why haven't you ever questioned any of the other
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a point you are perfectly entitled to
 7 MR IRVING:     My Lord, that is all I wish now to...
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not a bad thing to have those points
 9ventilated. Now I think it is Professor Browning?
10 MR RAMPTON:     He is here, my Lord. Yes.
12< Examined by MR RAMPTON QC.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Professor Browning, what are your full names?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Christopher Robert Browning.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have you made an expert witness report for the purposes of
16this case?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I have.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you have it with you?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have my own report. I do not have the pagination of the
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We must make ----
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The reformatting of it.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- sure you have the same version as we do. I ask you
24only this, in so far as that report contains statements of
25fact, are you satisfied so far as you can be that they are

.   P-29

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There are some things that I have become aware since the
 2report that I would have added if I had known of them as
 3of mid July 1999, but it only affirms what I have already
 4written, except it changes some dates but, in general,
 5I would say, yes, that the report still stands.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In so far as it contains expressions of opinion, are you
 7satisfied in your own mind that those opinions are fair?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Will you please remain there to be cross-examined by
10Mr Irving?
11 < Cross-Examined by MR IRVING.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving?
13 MR IRVING:     Good morning, Professor Browning.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Good morning.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say you have made a number of fresh determinations on
16dates and things recently, since July 1999, that you would
17have written certain dates differently?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, particularly the dates as to when certain special of
19Operation Reinhardt appeared.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which spellings?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say now that we have not two but three different
22spellings, one with a T, one with a DT and one with a D,
23and that those all appear as of 1942 when earlier the
24first DT spelling I had found had been of 1943.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the significance of 1942, in your opinion?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The significance of this would be if there are three

.   P-30

 1different spellings, that it was made in honour of any
 2particular individual because one would know how the
 3spelling was. Well, obviously, this was phonetic and they
 4spelled it in any way that it occurred to them, and, of
 5course, in 1942 is the height of the clearing of the
 6gettoes and the killing of the Jews in Poland.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. We were going to come later on to the Aktion or
 8Operation Reinhard. Am I correct in saying that there has
 9been one school of thought, the thought that the Operation
10Reinhardt had been named after the late lamented or
11unlamented chief of the security police, Reinhard
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is one suggestion made because the files on personnel
14in Berlin spell it with just a D which is the way he spelt
15his name, so that was one suggestion that has been made
16which I do not endorse.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     While we are on the matter, because we are going to have a
18joint journey of discovery and exploration over the next
19day or two, I think, have documents come to your attention
20that have the initials AR in them instead of a security
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I only saw reference to that from the transcript here.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     But I had not noticed that myself.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is an interesting discovery, would you agree?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would like to look at the documents to see how it was

.   P-31

 1written, but I had not noticed that before.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. You are familiar with the correspondence between
 3Wolff and Gunsen Muller?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     In July 1942?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where Wolff -- can you remember what Wolff wrote to Gunsen
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, he wanted trains and Gunsen Muller replied that, yes,
10he had trains and told him how many would be going each
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is correct that Wolff replied that he was glad to hear
13that 5,000 of a chosen race were going to be sent to ----
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is my memory of the document, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     And is there any significance you would attach to the fact
16that that had the initials AR on it?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It could indicate that a copy of this was to be filed in
18some file called Aktion Reinhardt.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     So we are constantly discovering new things, is this
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that the last chapter on the Holocaust really still has
23to be written?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We are still discovering things about the Roman Empire.
25There is no last chapter in history.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is quite an adventure, though, is it not, as fresh

.   P-32

 1archives around the world open up, would you agree?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you worked in -- I suppose you have worked in the
 4German archives, have you not?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you worked in the archives in Munich?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you had the opportunity to work in the Moscow
 9archives yet?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I have not.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     What other major holdings are there of records on the
12Holocaust -- for example, in the United States?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There would be the National Archives collection of
14captured German documents and the microfilms at the United
15States Holocaust Museum from various East European
16archives and the Berlin Document Centre of Microfilms now
17also in the National Archives.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have those microfilms also been placed in the German
19Federal Archives now?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The German Federal Archives took over the originals of the
21Berlin Document Centre, so I presume they have both the
22microfilm and the originals in their possession.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Shooting off on one brief side excursion, have you found
24German archives sometimes rather secretive about recently
25acquired collections?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The area where I have had difficulty is getting court

.   P-33

 1access to see pretrial interrogations because of the
 2increased emphasis on privacy law in Germany. That is,
 3I would say, the greatest difficulty that I have
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am surprised by this. In other words, what you are
 6saying is the pretrial interrogations of suspected war
 7criminals or of witnesses conducted in the 1940s and
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Mostly 1960s and '70s.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have now been closed again, have they?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not closed, but there simply is more paper work to get
12them. In the 1970s I could ask to see them and I would be
13granted immediate access by the local person. Now it has
14to go to somebody higher up to approve it.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does it make any difference if they are dead?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, generally it applies to whether you can see the
17records of this particular case, and they make no
18distinction as to whether people there are living or dead
19because the family members, children, would still be
20living too. I believe that there was concern, or at least
21that is what is cited, the family is still sensitive to
22the issues.
23 MR IRVING:     Would it be right to say that if an historian went
24to Moscow and came back with the Goebbels diaries and gave
25them to German archives, they would then vanish for
26several years?

.   P-34

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is a possibility that they would say, "We need to
 2classify these" and do whatever else and it would
 3temporarily not be available.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the Goebbels diaries in any respect?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Only in the publications of the various -- the Frohich
 6publication from Munich and previous publications. I have
 7not worked in an original Goebbels.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you any sense of how long the period elapses between
 9the arrival of the original diaries in the hands of those,
10shall we say, processors and the publication in generally
11accessible form? Is it a matter of months or weeks or
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Browning, do you have any particular problems as
15a non-Jewish historian writing about the Holocaust?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Could you tell me a little more -- can you give me a
17little more direction as to what you are looking at? In
18terms of do I have a psychological problem or personal
19problem? Have I encountered ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professional problems?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- professional problems? Occasionally, one might say
22that it has been -- I can say in one or two cases I think
23it affected the opinions of some people concerning my
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to explore this in any great depth, but
26would I be right in suggesting that the Jewish historians

.   P-35

 1regard the Holocaust as their patch?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I would not. I think, in fact, many of them were very
 3accepting of my coming into the field because it, in fact,
 4indicated that this was not their patch, if I can use
 5your phrase, but something that was not just important to
 6Jewish history but important to world history, and that
 7the fact that a non-Jewish historian would look at this
 8would be seen as a validation of the universal importance
 9of the topic, not just that it was a parochial ethnic
10history of a particular people and that no one else, this
11was not important to anyone else.
12     So I would say I have had for more
13re-affirmation of supports from Jewish historians than the
14very few cases in which I felt my work would have been
15seen in a negative way because I was not Jewish.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you have not been disadvantaged in any way by being a
17non-Jewish historian?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There are one or two instances where that may have been
19the case, but far more prominent -- far more often that
20has not been the case.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     You used to be Professor of History at Pacific State
22Luther University?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Pacific Luther University.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     In Tacoma in Washington State?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Tacoma, Washington.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are now currently a Professor of History at?

.   P-36

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     University of North California at Chapel Hill.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     At Chapel Hill. One of the most prestigious universities
 3to have held tenure at would have been Harvard, would it
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Harvard would be a very prestigious university.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     So if a chair in Holocaust studies had been appointed in
 7Harvard, it is a position you would have applied for or
 8hoped to obtain?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I was considered for a position there.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     What militated against you, do you think?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No one received the position, Jewish or non-Jewish
12historians. At least one person on the Search Committee
13made a statement to the press that they felt that only
14someone deeply grounded in Jewish culture should be
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     What did he mean by that, do you think?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, in fact it was a she and the statement was applied
18to me and the other candidates because they were mainly
19working in German history, not in Jewish history, and
20I think this was meant that she did not like any of the
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. So no one was appointed, is that what
23you say?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No one was appointed.
25 MR IRVING:     In fact, the man who had put up money for this new
26chair then starting raising obstacles, is this not right?

.   P-37

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe when they did try to make an appointment for a
 2semester per year, rather than a full-time, he refused to
 3release his money to support the appointment on that
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Is it right that the New York Times in July 1997
 6quoted you as saying that you felt that you had been ruled
 7out because, and I am quoting, "I am not Jewish. I come
 8from a small college"?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That was a quote that was taken entirely out of context.
10In the letter to the editor published the following
11Friday, I explain what the full quote had been, and that
12is she had asked me why I had not, why did I think I had
13not been appointed, and I had said, "Well, I do not know.
14I am not on the committee, but I can read in the press
15what several people have said themselves", one of which is
16the one I gave you earlier, and having quoted this person
17on the Search Committee to the effect that someone only
18deeply grounded in the Jewish culture should get it,
19I then commented, "That would make me doubly ineligible
20because I do not work in Jewish history and I am not
21Jewish". She quoted the last four words and left out all
22of the context and totally distorted the meaning of the
23statement that I gave and that was explained in a letter
24to the editor at the end of the week.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you as deeply shocked as I am to hear that the press
26takes things out of context?

.   P-38

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not a surprise, no. It does happen.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Browning, just one more question on this
 3particular avenue: if you were to apply for a position of
 4Director of the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, do you think
 5you would be in the running there or would there be an
 6obstacle there too?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     My guess is in this generation it would be considered not
 8likely to happen, but that within another generation this
 9would be very different.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Changing the theme somewhat now, how long has there been
11talk of Holocaust, not necessarily that word, but just of
12this particular -- it appears to come to the fore again in
13the 1970s, the campaign, would you agree?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     When I started work in the early '70s, very, very few
15people were working on it. By the end of the '70s there
16were academic conferences on it. So that was the decade
17in which I think there was a shift to a greater
18consciousness of the Holocaust as an important historical
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Were you here in the courtroom earlier when we examined a
21book published by the Memorial Museum, a passage written
22by Aberhard Jackel?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I was here, and yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Aberhard Jackel, would you agree in that passage, or as it
25was rendered here in the court, suggested that until my
26book 'Hitler's War' was published, there had been no real

.   P-39

 1investigation of the Holocaust apart from the Reitlinger
 2and the Hilberg books?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I think I would not agree with that statement.
 4I would say that there had been substantial study of the
 5Holocaust; the Trunk book, in terms of the Jewish
 6Council's, Hilberg in terms of the apparatus, Schloenus in
 7terms of the preHolocaust bureaucratic process. What had
 8not been studied before you published was a particular
 9focus on decision-making process and Hitler's role. That
10is one part and, in so far as we can confine ourselves to
11that, indeed, your publication of 'Hitler's War' was the
12impetus for the research in that area.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     What was the reason for this 20 year, 22 year, lack of
14interest in examining whether the decision had been given
15or how the decision had been given for the Holocaust?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think probably several things. One, the person who had
17focused mainly in the German documents, Raul Hilberg, was
18very interested in the bureaucratic structure, but not
19terribly interested in dating decisions. This happened to
20be his focus.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you discussed this matter personally with Raul
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes and he is more interested in bureaucratic structure
24than he is in linear or chronological decision-making
25process. I am more interested in chronological process
26than bureaucratic structure.

.   P-40

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know what his opinion is on whether Adolf Hitler
 2actually issued an order or not?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think his feeling is if you are looking for an order in
 4a formal sense, that such a thing probably was not given.
 5If you are looking at it in the way that you described
 6earlier, calling it the Richard Nixon complex, that Hitler
 7made very clear to Himmler and Heydrich what he expected
 8and they understood what was expected of them, that he --
 9I cannot speak for him, but I believe he would not have
10been uncomfortable with that formulation.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     The kind of "don't let me find out what you are up to"?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, but also, "this is what I want but don't let me find
13-- don't bother me the with details". He often said to
14several people on record, "Take care of this. In 10 years
15report back that it was done and I will not ask you how it
16was accomplished".
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     In connection with what topics would that kind of decision
18have been made, not in connection with the Holocaust?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think in terms of the ethnic cleansing from the annexed
20territories from Poland, he used that expression, to the
21Gauleiter along with Warthegau and Schlesier and
22whatever ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Gauleiter Dreiser or someone like that?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     He say he did not want to have interim reports, "Just tell
26me when it has been done"?

.   P-41

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That he indicated he did not want to be bothered with the
 2details. He wanted it accomplished ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are we still -- I am so sorry -- talking
 4about Raul Hilberg's view or are we sliding into your own
 6 MR IRVING:     No. We are now talking about his own expertise.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is quite important to know whose opinions
 8I am hearing.
 9 MR IRVING:     I believe this is Professor Browning's opinion. (To
10the witness): Am I right?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, we started talking about what Hilberg and
12I explained what I thought he would be comfortable with,
13and then I believe we kind of shifted into how we would
14understand this kind of decision making process would be
15done that was not attributed to Raul Hilberg specifically
16but a general discussion.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, it may be helpful ----
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I want to have clear is what you have
19just said, which was very clear, if I may say so. Was
20that your view, namely, he effectively made clear what he
21wanted done and then said, "You get on with it and I do
22not want to know the details"? Is that your view?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. We have documented cases where, in terms of ethnic
24cleansing, he made that statement, and so I would say this
25is a way in which Hitler conveys or makes decisions or
26gives orders that we would not consider a formal order in

.   P-42

 1the sense of a signed document, and I would say that is my
 2opinion, not attributed to Raul Hilberg.
 3 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I should also have given you a kind of
 4topic paragraph of what I intend doing today.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have made that clear before; it does help
 7 MR IRVING:     Yes. I intend having this general discussion to
 8start with and then we will revert to his report, and I
 9hope that we will cover the first 25 pages of the report
10during the day which is covering very much ground level
11operations of the Einsatzgruppen on the Eastern Front.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. At the moment it is a sort of bird's
13eye view which is very helpful to start off with.
14 MR IRVING:     Indeed, my Lord. This kind of discussion is
15helpful because I do not know Professor Browning, we have
16never met, and we have never had the pleasure and I am,
17frankly, interested in finding out what he knows.
18 MR RAMPTON:     I have something to say, if I may since, we have
19now been told what the plan is. (A) I am not interested,
20I mean as an advocate appearing for clients, in having
21this court used as what one might call an historical forum
22an I dare say your Lordship is not either unless it goes
23to an issue in the action.
24     I heard with some alarm Mr Irving threatening to
25spend the rest of the day cross-examining about the
26Einsatzgruppen shootings in the East. Your Lordship may

.   P-43

 1recall that Mr Irving has made a very clear concession
 2that those shootings happened on a massive scale, that
 3they were systematic and that Hitler authorized them. So
 4where ----
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but, well, I do not know what the
 6questions are going to be yet, but this is your -- I am
 7just going to say something to Mr Rampton -- expert. He
 8is saying what he says. He is making various historical
 9assertions. Obviously, Mr Irving cannot resile from what
10he has already conceded, but he is entitled to go through
11it. I do not know exactly what he is going to ask.
12 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know either. If there is some area of
13Professor Browning's report which Mr Irving disputes which
14is still relevant to the case, then, of course, and it may
15be that there are other areas of the report which he can,
16as it were, try to use to undermine Professor Browning's
17credibility. That I cannot object to either. What he
18cannot do in cross-examination -- I am only putting down a
19marker -- now is to try, as it were, to go back behind the
20concession that he has made.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it is helpful to be reminded of the
22concession. I do not suppose Mr Irving will
23but I certainly do not see any reason why he should not
24follow the path.
25 MR IRVING:     I do not think that was a helpful interruption at
26all from Mr Rampton. Normally Mr Rampton's interruptions

.   P-44

 1are welcome and very helpful but, if he had only waited, I
 2have written in large letters here on my notes, "We do not
 3contest the shootings".
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think so far, if I may say so, you have
 5been perfectly consistent in the way you have put your
 6case, but Mr Rampton was putting down what may turn out to
 7be an unnecessary marker.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     It may well do.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us press on.
10 MR IRVING:     You were talking about the ethnic cleansing of
11these Polish regions. What would have been meant by that?
12If Hitler had said, carry out the ethnic cleansing but do
13not tell me for the next ten years, just come back in ten
14years to tell me it has been done, would the ethnic
15cleansing have actually involved the mass extermination of
16any category of people?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That involved the mass expulsion of Jews, gypsies and what
18they said was other undesirable people, in these areas to
19be repopulated with ethnic Germans brought back from the
20regions of Eastern European conceded to Stalin in the non
21aggression pact.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     We have a bit of a problem, do we not, with the fact that
23parts of Eastern Europe had been conceded to Stalin? Do
24we have any clear figures as to how many thousands or
25hundreds of thousands of Jews had been dumped across the
26demarcation line by the Nazis into the Soviet controlled

.   P-45

 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We do not have exact figures on either those that were
 3dumped or those that fled, but the estimate that I have
 4seen ranged between 200 and 300 thousand that escaped from
 5the German occupied side of Poland to the Soviet occupied
 6side. But those are estimates because obviously no one is
 7keeping track in any systematic way.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. To recapitulate, for the first 20 years after World
 9War II there was no real investigation into the decision
10making process by which this appalling crime had been set
11in motion?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There were not studies focused on that, but they focused
13on a great deal about the Holocaust. One could not say
14the Holocaust had not been subjected to careful study.
15The decision making process in the 1930s was subjected to
16very careful study by Karl Schleunes and Adam and Adam
17also did venture into the field up to 1941 and came up
18with a very late date by those times. He said Hitler did
19not decide until the fall of 41, which to historians at
20that point seemed to be shockingly late. It is now a
21figure that many of us would agree with but at that point
22it was quite a revolutionary proposal.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     To cut straight to the bottom line, nobody has ever found
24a single document indicating a Hitler decision or a Hitler
25will in this direction. We have had to do a lot of
26extrapolating and reading between the lines. Is that

.   P-46

 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     A lot of it comes from a collection of documents from
 3which one draws inferences, from which one looks at
 4circumstantial evidence and how one construes the Nazi
 5system of work. But we do not have what we would call the
 6smoking pistol document; your thousand pounds is still
 7safe in your bank account in that regard. We do not have
 8a signed order by Adolf Hitler or a document that
 9explicitly refers to him taking the decision in that kind
10of way.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you surprised at that?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, because we have -- one area in which we have a record
13of how a decision was made was when Himmler goes to Hitler
14in late May of 1940, when he wants to revalidate the
15ethnic programme that Frank and Goering had more or less
16slowed down in the spring 1940 on the grounds of priority
17of military concerns, and then, when it seemed clear that
18victory in France as very near, Himmler goes back,
19presents his memorandum to Hitler.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     May 25 1940, is that right?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. What Himmler then records is that Hitler read the
22memorandum, found it very good and correct, and said to
23Himmler, "You may show this to the others and tell them it
24is in my line of thinking".
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     How do we know that?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is because we have a second memorandum by Himmler

.   P-47

 1recording the conversation.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but he does not actually quote those words, does he?
 3You have rather embroidered them.
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is how Himmler records the conversation. He does not
 5have a quote, Hitler said, quotation mark.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you remember one particular phrase in that Himmler
 7memorandum of May 1940 in which Himmler says something
 8like, "There can of course be no question of the wholesale
 9extermination of the Jews"?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     At that point he considers what he calls a Bolshevic
11solution as unGerman and impossible. Yes, I have quoted
12that many times.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     How would you interpret that particular phrase?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would interpret that, that Himmler is not the one who
15would propose such things, that if he eventually did that
16it could have to have come from someone with greater
17authority than him.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let us take it in stages.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, do you mind me interrupting you?
20Are we now on the general perspective? Are you going to
21come back to these individual documents?
22 MR IRVING:     You will notice that when I start referring to page
23numbers of his report, my Lord. If I could take that
24piece by piece, if Himmler wrote in his May 25th 1940
25memorandum that sentence saying "There can be no question
26of a Bolshevic solution of the Jewish problem", in other

.   P-48

 1words, just liquidating them ----
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Liquidating a whole people.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is no indication of course, either on that document
 4which Himmler actually marked in his own handwriting, or
 5in the subsequent memorandum that he wrote, that Hitler
 6had overruled him and said, "Oh, on the contrary", is
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     What Himmler wanted to get from Hitler was backing for his
 9renewed ethnic cleansing, and that Himmler comes away with
10the affirmation that he can cite Hitler's backing if Frank
11and Goring and others try to block him again.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of course, you would agree that there had been a lot of
13killing of the Jews in the Polish campaign and afterwards
14had there not? .
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The greater focus I believe, was on killing of Polish
16intelligentsia but certainly, given the Jews are about 10
17per cent of the population I think that the percentage of
18fatalities percentage wise is greater among the Jewish
19population than the Polish.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the conferences conducted by Heydrich in the autumn
211939 and over that winter, of which we have the records,
22the Jews are also mentioned as being a category to be
23exterminated, are they not?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There is a series of different quotes. I do not think
25there is a global reference to killing all Jews. There is
26one to killing Polish intelligentsia.

.   P-49

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Jews, the clergy?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They list this as a category of people. It is not a
 3global killing of all Jews but Jews are among the groups
 4that can be killed. No one is going to get into trouble
 5killing Jews.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Were they to be killed because they were potential
 7leadership material, or potential trouble makers, or
 8what? Was there a reason giving for the killing given on
 9that occasion?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or was it purely ideological?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not remember the exact document in its entirety so
13I would hesitate to say something.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is a string of documents September and October
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There is a collection of references. Sometimes these
17references refer to different categories. They are not
18the same categories each time. Sometimes Jews appear
19among that category. I do not recall that they give a
20detailed justification of why each of those categories is
21mentioned at this time.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not know if you familiar with my book Hitler's War at
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not very familiar.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept that -- and I can be proved wrong by
26Mr Rampton -- I refer in great deal to these particular

.   P-50

 1September and October 1939 conferences at which the Jews
 2were to be killed and the orders were given?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I cannot answer that because I have not read that
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Very well. Have not the Jewish people throughout this
 6century, in fact long before World War II and since World
 7War I, constantly proclaimed that they were in danger of
 8being exterminated, or indeed that they were already being
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I could not say yes to that.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     It has been a kind of an ongoing story, has it not?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. When you say "the Jews have said", I am afraid that
13is the kind of formulation that it is impossible to
14answer. You may find one Jew or another, but that does
15not mean "the Jews" have constantly said that.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I hand you this book to have a look at? Can you read
17the title on the jacket of that book?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "The Yellow Spot, the Extermination of the Jews in
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you see who has published it?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     With an introduction by the Bishop of Durham.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you look on the back of the spine, you will see the
23initials VG, Victor Gollantz.
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I see the Gollantz written at the bottom.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the book has been published by a reputable English
26publisher. Can you rapidly flutter inside and see what

.   P-51

 1year that book called "The Extermination of the Jews" was
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In 1936.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Three years before World War II we are already hearing
 5books on this subject.
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If one looks right below the title page, it says "The
 7Yellow Spot, the outlawing of half a million human
 8beings". It does not say the murder of them, but it does
 9say "the outlawing".
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it confined to 33 to 36?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is published in 36.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I wonder what the events are it describes. It may be it
13is only the last three years?
14 MR IRVING:     It is a very good history, actually, of the Nazi
15persecution of the Jews up to that time.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You mentioned the first world war. It does
17not go that far back?
18 MR IRVING:     I could have gone back to similar publications back
19at the First World War but it is a rather arcane
20exercise. It is an odd thing that the word
21"extermination" at that time can be taken to mean
22something which means something totally different to the
23way we understand it now, is it not?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It seems a fairly hyperbolic title.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do we have the same problems with word in German? Words
26like umsiedlung and ausrotung?

.   P-52

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The conventional use is turned into a specialised use.
 2Language changes that way all the time. Before 1971
 3"destabilization" meant one thing. After Kissinger uses
 4it, it takes on a second meaning because of historical
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of course, "pot" and "grass" and things like that change
 7their meaning, do they not? Is there any indication that
 8words used even at the same time in the Third Reich can
 9have totally different meanings depending who is using
10them, who they are speaking to? For example, an
11apparently innocent word like umsiedlung, which means
12resettlement, can take on a totally different sinister
13meaning when uttered by Heinreich Himmler?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. If you are referring to ethnic Germans, it generally
15means that you are removing them from one place to
16another. In documents referring to Jews after 1942 it
17usually means sending them to a camp.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Without wishing to pre-empt the logical flow of this
19examination in a way, can I direct your attention to one
20document in the bundle which is probably next to you,
21H3(i)? Footnote 54 is the one I am after.
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Where do I turn?
23 MR IRVING:     If you look at the bottom there is FN 54 in black
24felt pen.
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Which tab? FN 54.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You will remember the episode because it is the umsiedlung

.   P-53

 1of 20,000 Jews at ----
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, and then two pages later it becomes a different word.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have got it. You are absolutely right. Two pages
 4later they are quite plain that they were shot?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     So in this document umsiedlung refers to killing?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you can see the word umsiedlung. My Lord, you will see
 9it in line 7 of the first paragraph. Does your Lordship
10have the document?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am still making my way there.
12 MR IRVING:     In 54 (i), document November 8th, 1942. Actually,
13there is no dispute about this. The Nazis killed 20,000
14Jews in two days in the middle of October 1942. We are
15just looking at words.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is umsiedlung?
17 MR IRVING:     Seven lines down my Lord "Umsiedlung der Juden".
18Then in the following line you have umgesiedelt. So quite
19clearly it means killing, does it not?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     So in this man's mouth at this time, in this document,
22umsiedlung and umgesiedelt means killing?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Now would you look at the last line of that paragraph,
25Professor? This is the only trap I have got prepared for
26you today. Would you translate into English the last

.   P-54

 1sentence please?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Let me read the whole first.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     The sentence beginning with the words "Die helfter...
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. They are referring to village which had had contact
 5with the partisans and they say half the inhabitants were
 6shot and the other half umgesiedelt to a neighbouring
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     So there you have in the same paragraph two totally
 9different meaning of the word umsiedlung?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And the context making it fairly clear.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Otherwise it would have been no use to us, but it is an
12illustration, is it not, of the pitfalls we have and how
13easy it is to adopt what Mr Rampton might call a
14translation of a word, purely because we do not have the
15context, the surrounding country side, to tell us what
16this particular word means?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There are different meanings to the same word, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, in fact, if somebody accused you of using the word
19wrongly and perversely and doing it deliberately, and you
20did not have the surrounding country side to help you,
21that would be a bit unfair, would it?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It would depend upon the broader context of the
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you now please take your expert report? You say
25your pagination is different from ours?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe they have my court formatted one here as well.

.   P-55

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Go to page 5.
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     First of all, I would ask you to look at your main title,
 4The Evidence For the Implementation of the Final
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     What do you understand by the phrase "Final Solution"?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I understand that is a programme to kill the Jews within
 9the Nazi sphere of influence in Europe.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that not a perverse translation of that phrase
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. I think it is a translation that becomes very clear,
13in terms of that stage. The word Endlosung does appear
14with a less lethal meaning earlier, but I think certainly
15it comes into this meaning and a number of documents have
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     A less lethal meaning in earlier documents. In other
18words, that does not necessarily mean killing? It can
19also mean other final solutions?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They speak in different ways of an engilticus losung or a
21total or gazumpt losung. There is a different series of
22words. By 42 when you get folders, for instance, it will
23then say this becomes in a sense the accepted word, and
24I think at that time it also becomes the word that applies
25to a particular programme, not a general statement that
26has lots of different meanings.

.   P-56

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor Browning, would you accept that in the archives
 2of the German Foreign Office the file title "Endlosung der
 3Judenfrage" goes back to 1936, certainly to 1938?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There are certainly documents that predate, but the file
 5that I think is actually called that, I would have check
 6and see what the earliest documents on that are. I do not
 7recall at the moment.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is true, is it not, that Endlosung is used
 9at a time when deportation rather than extermination was
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, at the earlier period there will be a series of
12words. Sometimes it will be losung, sometimes it will be
13gazumpt losung, and sometimes total losung and sometimes
14endlosung. When we get to the period of the Wannsee
15conference on, it usually is expressed as Endlosung and
16you do not get nearly the same mix. That is just my
17impression. I have not done an actual count of how often
18that occurs, but my impression is that at that point, when
19it is referring to a specific programme, that is the word
20that is used almost consistently.
21 MR IRVING:     In other words, you should really have called the
22report, this is no real criticism, not evidence for the
23implementation of the final solution, but evidence for
24implementation of a killing programme, or a systematic
25killing programme? Final Solution could have meant
26something else?

.   P-57

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think I define what I mean by it in the report, so
 2I would say that it is perfectly fine to use the term that
 3I used.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are not denying the fact that Final Solution does come
 5to mean killing, but it did not always mean that, did it?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It will appear in earlier documents when it does not mean
 7killings, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are familiar with the event reports, are you not?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     You did not quote in your report the passage on the Jewish
11question from the event report No. 81 dated September 12th
121941. I am just going to quote to you three and a half
13lines from it. It is the operations of Einsatzkommando 6,
14and the quotation is as follows. It may be familiar to
15you. "The gratuitous evacuation of hundreds of thousands
16of Jews", what would "evacuation" there be?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have not seen the written ----
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     "The gratuitous evacuation of hundreds of thousands of
19Jews may be considered to be an indirect success of the
20work of the security police. As we hear mostly from the
21other side of the Urals, the Ural mountains, this is a
22considerable contribution to the solution of the Jewish
23question in Europe". This is September 1941 and in your
24opinion are they are referring there to a geographical
25evacuation, or something more sinister?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not seeing the wider context, I think he is probably

.   P-58

 1referring to the escape of Jews to the Soviet side, and
 2that these were Jews that were no longer within German
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     "The gratuitous evacuation of hundreds of thousands of
 5Jews may be considered to be an indirect success of the
 6work of the security police", in other words they had
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     They did not want to get shot?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They are Jews that do not have to be shot because they
10have left German custody.
11 MR IRVING:     So at this time there was no plan to catch all the
12Jews you could and kill them?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     What the reports note as they go further East, there are
14fewer and fewer Jews in the areas the Germans get because
15so many have fled, and this is in a sense of a way of
16saying why his body count has not been maintained, that so
17many of these are have fled beyond the Soviet lines. We
18can consider this an indirect success. If the programme
19then was still expulsion, this would not be an indirect
20success, it would be a direct success. If it is an
21indirect success, that implies that it is something other
22than what the direct process is.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You said something rather interesting there, the fact that
24his body count had not been maintained. What did you
25imply by that?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Some of the Einsatzgruppen or Einsatzkommandos have a much

.   P-59

 1lower count than some of the others?
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did this reflect badly on them, do you think?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In the sense that sometimes the commander says, well, the
 4Jews have fled from this area in the sense he is
 5explaining up the line why there is a discrepancy, or why
 6there is an uneven pattern and some of his officers will
 7not be reporting the same numbers as others. He does not
 8go into detail but I would infer from that that he fears
 9that they may be viewed as not zealous enough in the sense
10he is covering for them and giving an explanation to
11Berlin as to why some kommandos have much larger numbers
12than others.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     You appreciate what I am getting at here, do you not? The
14fact that there may have been a tendency to bloat reports
15or to exaggerate figures, a temptation?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There certainly is the possibility of that, but at the
17same time of course that means they know that Berlin wants
18big numbers, which would indicate that they perfectly
19realize they are part of that programme, the purpose of
20which is to get big numbers, that they report exact
21numbers when everything we know about how the killings
22were carried out, no one was sitting with a clicker giving
23a precise body count. So we would not take these as
24precise numbers, but they are ball park numbers.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, when somebody reports from the front to Himmler or to
26Berlin that 360,000 Jews have been killed in a three month

.   P-60

 1period -- you are familiar with the report I am referring
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     And It is a very precise figure, accurate down to the last
 5digit, we should not expect that to be genuinely accurate
 6down to the last digit?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, because it is based on reports like Pressertoft, which
 8is a round figure of 20,000. So that is a false precision
 9in the report; that it is a ball park figure of the
10general area, I think is also the case.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     They are mind boggling figures, are they not?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Indeed.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     When you consider -- I do not know what your equivalent
14stadium in North California is, but Wembley Stadium here,
15for example, and you imagine shooting all that number of
16people in that space of two days, it is quite a daunting
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is a very large figure.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     How large were the units that carried out these shooting
20operations? How big was an Einsatzgruppe?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Einsatzgruppen total about 3,000.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But in each one were they all the same size?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, this is all four together. Einsatzgruppen A was
24I think the largest at 900, Einsatzgruppen B was probably
25the smallest at 600.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Their tasks were not just killing people, were they? They

.   P-61

 1had tasks?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you specify to the court what the other tasks of the
 4Einsatzgruppen were, apart from killing people?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They were to, well, kill others than Jews. They were to
 6capture Soviet function areas, communist party members and
 7they were to be killed, they were to secure left behind
 8documentation, particularly trying to get NKPD documents
 9or communist government documents, so they were to take
10likewise what was called all preventative measures against
11potential enemies.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Rather like CIC after the Second World War?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well to uncover if agents had been left behind the
14retreating armies.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Rather like the CIC, the Counter Intelligence Corps of the
16American Army after the Second World War, except for the
17killing operations, of course?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know what the CIC was exactly.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the Sonderkommando Kunsberg, for
20example, the operations they carried out raiding Foreign
21Ministry buildings after the fall of Prague and Belgrade
22and so on, capturing documents?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Securing documents was one function.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Quite an important function, was it not, of the
25Einsatzgruppen? They had an intelligence gathering

.   P-62

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They do not refer too often in the documentation. This
 2does not seem to have been a priority, but it was
 3something, when they did it, they boasted about it.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor, I disagree with you on that. If you were to
 5read the event reports of the Einsatzgruppen, you will
 6surely find that their killing operations are only one
 7paragraph, and that they have other paragraphs detailing
 8in some detail, describing in some detail, the
 9intelligence gathering operations in which they were
10involved and other routine police rear area operations?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The reports are very long and the killing of Jews is
12usually one section within that much longer report.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Dealt with in a very callous manner, just 20,000 Jews were
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is usually done fairly briefly.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you ever tried to do a back of the envelope
17calculation on the feasibility of these killing
18operations, given the limited number of personnel who
19would have been available and the limited number of trucks
20that they had and the primitive nature of their trucks?
21Do you remember reading in any of these reports about how
22their horse drawn carts had broken an axle and that kind
23of thing?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not remember a report on a broken axle, but I do
25remember reports where they deal with manpower problems,
26so that by late July they have gotten permission to raise

.   P-63

 1auxiliary units in the area, that they often refer to the
 2co-operation of the Army in providing people for cordons,
 3that according to the preinvasion agreement between the
 4Army and the SS, the Army was to provide logistical
 5support so, when they needed extra trucks and this kind of
 6thing, the Army was expected to provide them. So that
 7when we say that an Einsatzgruppen operation involved a
 8kommando, that is not the only manpower that is involved.
 9What we have found from the newer documentation from the
10Soviet Union is the degree to which the Einsatzkommando
11has since wanted to hog all the credit. Now that we see
12more documents, we can see that others were involved too.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Soviet archives have been very important, have they
14not, the former Soviet archives?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They have been important in fleshing out what happened in
16the Soviet Union. I do not think they have transformed
17our understanding of what happened elsewhere in Europe a
18great deal.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     I have read your report with enormous interest, because of
20course I am not a Holocaust expert, but I have shown
21particular attention to the sources that have been used,
22the archives in Minsk you refer to?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Minsk, Riga, Moscow.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     How long have these archives been available to the average
25run of the mill incorrigible revisionist historian who
26wants to go and do research in them, do you think? Ten

.   P-64

 1twenty, thirty years or quite recently?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have not worked in them. Gerald Fleming, I believe, got
 3into the Riga archives very early on, and he has kindly
 4provided me with my first documents out of these areas.
 5So that it was possible to get into some of them. It was
 6also possible in the Zentralstellar in Germany to look at
 7copies of documents that they had gotten from the Soviet
 8Union much earlier.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     In Potzdam?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No Ludwigsberg outside Stuttgart.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     West Germany?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. They had gotten what we now see, in a sense the
13cream of the crop. They had in fact seen many of these
14documents and brought photocopies back to Ludwigsberg. We
15had seen a number of the documents that then we found out
16were either in the secret archives or somewhere else.
17Historians could now see the whole pack. What you had was
18the selection in Ludwigsberg of selected documents.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let me try to zero in what you just said.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before you do that, Mr Irving, I am so sorry
21to interrupt because I am trying not to. It is difficult
22being interrupted, but I just want to see where we are
23getting with this. We know that you accept that the
24Einsatzgruppen killed probably hundreds of thousands.
25 MR IRVING:     We are looking at numbers, now, my Lord.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let me make sure I am understanding where we

.   P-65

 1are going -- killed hundreds of thousands of Jews. It may
 2well be that what you are suggesting at the moment is that
 3those reports were exaggerated. But surely, for the
 4purposes of this case, what really matters is that going
 5back to Berlin were reports giving the numbers that they
 6gave, because at this stage in the case we are really on
 7how high the knowledge went, and was there a systematic
 8programme in place.
 9 MR IRVING:     I am very familiar with what Mr Rampton is trying
10to get out of this case, my Lord.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not worry about what he is trying to get
12out of the case. I want to make sure that I know where we
13going with the cross-examination.
14 MR IRVING:     I will put my cards face up on the table then,
15which I was hoping not to have to do as early as this in
16the cross-examination.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You must in order to answer my question and I
18am sorry to interrupt.
19 MR IRVING:     We are looking at the August 1 1941 document. That
20is at the bottom of this particular alley, the document
21with which your Lordship is familiar.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is rather my point. I am sorry to
23interrupt you. All right, maybe a lot of the Jews were
24fleeing over the Urals and they were being shot by the
26 MR IRVING:     That is not that document. The fleeing Jews and the

.   P-66

 1question of the killing capacities, the manpower, the
 2personnel, the trucks base and so on, goes purely to the
 3matter that Richard Evans has raised. Your Lordship will
 4be familiar with the fact that Richard Evans has suggested
 5four criteria for what a Holocaust denier is. A Holocaust
 6denier is somebody who says Hitler did not know; a
 7Holocaust denier is somebody who says the figures were
 8less, and that is what this is about, that particular
 9matter. I am entitled to suggest that the figures have
10been exaggerated and now unfortunately the Professor knows
11precisely what I am after.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right. If you concede as much as you do
13concede, I wonder whether there is a great deal of scope
14for debate on this particular topic.
15 MR IRVING:     The figures are important, my Lord, I do suggest,
16because there was undoubtedly an appalling massacre on the
17Eastern Front. I do not deny it. No sensible historian
18does deny it, rather. I am not going to be shot down by
19Mr Rampton for suggesting the figures are not as large as
20they have been made out to be and there is room to suggest
21that, whatever one has conceded, I rather dispute the word
22conceded, it is a position I have always adopted, the
23figures are smaller than have been commonly suggested. I
24will not pursue this much further.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. It is really just to clarify my thinking
26but thank you for that answer. I appreciate that

.   P-67

 2 MR IRVING:     Interesting though all this is, and nothing would
 3please me more than to have a long conversation with
 4Professor Browning, this is the court's time and I am
 5acutely aware of that.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what I am conscious of, too.
 7 MR IRVING:     Where was I?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I interrupted your flow.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe we were talking about documents that an
10historian would have had access to in the 1980s as opposed
11to after 1989.
12 MR IRVING:     Yes. In other words, it should not really be held
13against a historian if he has not gone and worked in Minsk
14and Riga and these other places in your view?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     A number of those key documents in fact were by the 1970s,
16and in the Zentralsteller some copies were in the
17Institute in Munich. They are cited in books and at
18various conferences, and then we find that they were part
19of a larger file. But many of the key documents were
20available before 1989.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     I understood you to say that the German official or
22semi-official historical institutes had privileged
23access to Russian collections which are not immediately
24made available to other historians?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, not the historical institutes, the German judiciary in
26the process of trying Germans, most of which took place in

.   P-68

 1the 60s and 70s, did have access, and that they in turn at
 2Ludwigsberg allowed historians to come and see their
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Like Goldhagen, for example?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I worked there a great deal. They have a collection which
 6is a USSR folder which has lots of materials, copies from
 7Ludwigsberg. So I have seen some of these documents
 8sitting in Jerusalem, that once they were out, the Xerox
 9machines worked and copies were now accessible in a number
10of places.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you to look on paragraph 5 or the report
12paragraph 3.2?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     3.2 yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     You say that the Nazis sought to destroy all the
15documentary evidence and that is why we are so hard up.
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I mean, they certainly -- for instance, we have none
17of the internal papers of Eichmann's bureau. We have his
18correspondence in which copies ended up with the Foreign
19Office and elsewhere, but he seems to done a very good in
20destroying virtually all of his papers, as an example.
21     There are pockets of Himmler documents that have
22survived, as you and I both know, but certainly some that
23did not. And that we have seen orders, for instance, from
24Heydrich to people that destroyed documents.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     What disturbs me is your suggestion in paragraph 3.2, not
26so much a suggestion as a lament, that we have any amount

.   P-69

 1of evidence relating to the shootings, but virtually
 2nothing at all relating to gassings?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The number of written documents relating to shootings is
 4far more extensive than the number of documents relating
 5to gassings in Operation Reinhardt. I was not dealing
 6with gassings elsewhere.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     You used the useful concept of it not being symmetrical.
 8It is rather lopsided.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any methodological reason for that in your
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, I think if we read Globocnik's ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     I mean, assuming the gassings took place on this kind of
14scale that is now alleged, is there any reason why the
15documents should not be available on the same scale?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Two reasons, I think. First is it seems that there were
17much more reporting back to Berlin concerning the
18shootings, that is, we have the structure of these daily
19reports and then Heydrich formulated them into bi-monthly
20and monthly reports, and circulating them among up to 100
21people on the Verteile, the distribution sheet.
22     In terms of Operation Reinhardt, we have no
23evidence of regular reports back of this nature. We do
24have Globocnik's letter to Himmler in early 1944: "I have
25destroyed all the documents except those relating to
26finances. Can we get the audit done so I can destroy

.   P-70

 1those too?"
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I am familiar with that document. Can you suggest
 3any logical reason why they would have destroyed one
 4category of documents but not the others? After all, they
 5were in the killing business, you tell us, and Jews are
 6the victims, so why should they have been more methodical
 7in their destruction of the gassing documents than the
 8shooting documents?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think they probably produced many fewer documents
10relating to the three camps that were centralised under
11Globocnik in Lublin, while the shooting we have in a sense
12both the reports that go back to Berlin and things like
13the Brest-litovsk document, individual police reports that
14have survived in pockets, but certainly nothing
15comprehensive like the Einsatzgruppen reports.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Browning, I am not sure you have
17quite answered Mr Irving's question.
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     So that more shooting documents will survive because
19shooting took place in a decentralized way, and so you
20will have pockets of documents that survive in this area
21or that area. But given that the Operation Reinhardt
22activities were centralized, there would not be local
23documents about them at this police station or that police
24station, some of which would have slipped through and not
25been destroyed. So I think you have a much more
26centralised document base which was then systematically

.   P-71

 1destroyed and you do not have as many strays that managed
 2to survive by inadvertence.
 3 MR IRVING:     I am not sure that it is helpful that you refer to
 4Operation Reinhardt, or perhaps you ought to define what
 5you mean by Operation Reinhardt at this stage?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would take Globocnik's own definition which was that it
 7was the camps, the deportation from the gettoes to the
 8camps and the collection and use of the materials
 9collected and the use of Jewish labour. I believe there
10those are four functions, if my memory serves me right.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     But, of course, there is a function that you have not
12mentioned, in other words, the killing was not specified
13as a function of Operation Reinhardt.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, he talks about the camps, and it is my opinion, as
15you clearly know, that those camps were created to kill
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but these camps were operating on a loose rain, shall
18we say? They did not need the paperwork?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not think -- I do not know but I do not suspect once
20that they were a routine and they were stationery, unlike
21the police that are reporting back, "We are going from
22here to here" and have multiple duties of which they
23report about. Here they have one primary function. They
24were not moving. You do not report every day, "We are
25still in Sobibor. We have not moved to somewhere else".
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but you are familiar with the fact that the

.   P-72

 1concentration camp commandants made regular reports back
 2to Berlin?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     But Operation Reinhardt is not under the concentration
 4camp system in Berlin and the economic administrative
 5office. They are under Globocnik and are not part of that
 6chain of command and report.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Whom did Globocnik come under?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Globocnik technically comes under Kruger who -- Globocnik
 9is the SS and police leader for Lublin. He is under
10Kruger who is the higher SS and police leader for the
11general government ----
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is Friedrich Wilhelm Kruger?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, and higher SS and police leaders were appointed
14personally by Himmler, sent out as his emissaries. In
15this case we know ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     In parallel to Hans Frank. Hans Frank had a lot of
17friction with Kruger?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I mean, Hans Frank is not within the SS or under
19Himmler. He is appointed by Hitler as the Colonial
20Governor of the General Government.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     So there are two parallel systems operating here; there
22is the SS police system and there is the colonial
23government of Hans Frank?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There is a civil administration and an SS police
25structure, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     What happened after Kruger was killed in, what, February

.   P-73

 11943 or whenever?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I did not believe he was killed. I thought he was
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was replaced?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not recollect his fate but I certainly ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Who replaced him?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would have to look at that. I do not know.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this killing system, or this camp system, in other
 9words, came under Globocnik, who came Kruger, who came
10under Himmler direct.
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, but we do know that Globocnik often was in direct
12contact with Himmler and got special tasks from Himmler.
13So it may well have been that there is only a link from
14Globocnik directly to Himmler. Kruger may know what is
15going on, but may not be getting -- this is speculation on
16my part because we do not have any of that kind of
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. What was Globocnik's fate during the war? Did he
19fall into disfavour?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He had been, earlier before the war, the Gauleichter in
21Vienna, I believe, had been caught up in the financial
22scandal. He was then used by Himmler in Lublin until the
23fall of '43. After this was done, he, like many of the
24others, were sent to fight partisans in Yugoslavia and he
25is replaced.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But was he not replaced as part of a financial

.   P-74

 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I do not believe that we have definitive evidence on
 3that at all.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     To what extent did the loot play an important part in the
 5considerations of the SS, if I can put it like that, their
 6decision to kill thousands, hundreds of thousands, of
 7Jews, that they were eager to get their hands on their
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not believe that is a major factor at all, but it is
10a concern to get the loot as a by-product of the killing,
11you will -- that is, I believe they got to the loot
12because they had killed the Jews. They did not kill the
13Jews in order to get to the loot.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I go back to a question asked by
15Mr Irving earlier on and ask it in a slightly different
16form? If Berlin was interested in getting reports of the
17shootings, the numbers of the various categories killed,
18why (and I think this is really the thrust of his
19question) should they not have been interested in similar
20statistics in relation to gassing at the various camps?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I cannot give you an exact answer to that because it is
22not discussed in the documentation. Heydrich is the one
23that gets the reports from the police units. Himmler is
24the one that is getting reports from Globocnik. It may
25only be they had different ways of operation. I cannot
26say exactly an answer to your question because I

.   P-75

 1simply have not seen documentation that will explain it.
 2 MR IRVING:     Can I just hand you this document, Professor, and a
 3copy for his Lordship as well? There is no need to read
 4it. Just look at the general character of it. Are you
 5familiar with these documents in the British archives?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have seen copies of some of them. I have not actually
 7worked in the decrypts in the PRO, no.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you had any contact with Professor Richard Brightman?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Or with his English researcher, a Dr John Fox?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have had no recent contact with John Fox. The last time
12I saw him was 1992.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the fact that there are in the
14British archives now many tens of thousands of these
15intercepts of German SS and police messages?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know the number, but I know there are a large
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Well, will you accept that that particular page
19comes from a file of over thousand such pages, just one
20file, and I do not know how many reports are on that one
21page, there are about 15 items on that one page, so?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Seven.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would it surprise you to hear that in the British archives
24we have, I suppose, several hundred thousand intercepted
25SS and police messages?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would not challenge the figure.

.   P-76

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know from the works of Richard Brightman, like this
 2book here, 'Official Secrets', that we, British, and the
 3Americans also through us, were familiar with the killing
 4operations being conducted by the SS on the Eastern Front?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We -- as I understand Brightman's book, we were getting
 6the Police battalion reports which were in a lower code
 7between late July and early September or mid September,
 8which Daluege instructed them to send things by courier
 9and not by radio.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     1941 you are talking about?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     1941.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Is it known to you that the reason why Daluege
13ordered the code change is because Winston Churchill
14actually made a speech in 1941 relying on the intercepts,
15talking for the first time about these appalling
16atrocities being conducted by the SS?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have no single document that establishes a causal
18connection but there is a chronological meeting --
19chronologically, it is a possible interpretation.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen intercepted messages passed, intercepted by
21the British, intercepts by the British of messages passed
22by Himmler to the Einsatzgruppen chiefs, like Jeckeln or
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There is the August 1st telegramme, I think it is -- I do
25not believe it is a radio message -- in which he instructs
26them to kill the men and chase the women into the swamps.

.   P-77

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is that one, but I am still concentrating on just
 2these British intercepts, these tens of thousands of
 3intercepted Nazi SS and police messages. You suggest this
 4was just at police battalion level?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The reports on the killings that I read in Brightman were
 6police battalion reports back to Daleuge. Now, whether
 7these -- and he first saw them in the United States which
 8may have gotten part of, I do not know to what percentage
 9of the British intercepts were available to him in the
10United States and how much he may have included of London
11records, since I just do not know what he has looked.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     But if these tens of thousands of messages contained,
13shall we say, a random selection of intercepts, there was
14no methodological reason why it should only be intercepts
15relating to shootings rather than to anything else, would
16it surprise you to hear that there are only references in
17these tens of thousands of messages to shootings and no
18references whatsoever to gassings?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It would not surprise me because we have no intercepts
20that I know of between Himmler and Globocnik, that this
21was not the way in which they communicated to the Soviet
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the fact that the British official
24historians, Sir Frank Hinsley, summarized these and
25similar messages in the British Official History, this was
26the first clue that we had that these existed?

.   P-78

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe he said he looked at a few of them, that he did
 2not study that issue in detail, but that he did write
 3books that were on the British intelligence and referred
 4to these, yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know that he read the reports, the daily reports,
 6from the Kommandants of the seven principal concentration
 7camps, Auschwitz, Dachau, Buchenwald, and so on, back to
 8Berlin for a number of months over the winter of 1942 to
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I did not know that, but again I would say that Operation
11Reinhardt was not part of the concentration camp system
12and would not have been in the same chain of command.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     What archeological investigations have been conducted in
14recent years at any of the camp sites that you are
15alluding to, like Treblinka, Maidonek, Sobibor and Belzec?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     At the moment, I understand that they are doing
17archeological excavations in Belzec, that I do not believe
18at the moment they are doing them in Sobibor or
19Treblinka. They have made memorials there. Chelmo, they
20have created again in the forest where the graves were a
21series of memorials that represent where the trenches
22were. Whether that was based on somebody that knew or
23whether that was just placed there, I just do not know.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     So there has been no systematic effort to try to quantify
25the scale of killing that went on in these camps?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Belzec, I believe it is the first time at which they are

.   P-79

 1doing, which was the most -- the one that does not have a
 2developed memorial is the one which they are doing at the
 3moment archeological excavation.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just finally on your paragraph 3.2, you said there that as
 5far as the shootings go, we have a lot of documentary
 6evidence, but for gassings we have to rely on eyewitness
 7and circumstantial evidence.
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     For the three camps of Operation Reinhardt. We do have
 9some documentary evidence concerning Zemblin(?) and the
10gas vans working with the Einsatzgruppen and documents, a
11few documents, relating to Chelmo. The documents relating
12to Operation Reinhardt, I have argued, presents the case
13that lots of people went here and were never seen again,
14but the written documents do not specify why they were
15never seen again. They do not specify a method of
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do the documents specify that they were killed or do we
18have to conclude that?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, if 20 miles or 20 kilometres from Treblinka the
20Kommandant complains that the Jews are not buried well
21enough and that they have got a pestilential smell 20
22kilometres away, it would indicate a large number of Jews
23had been killed.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you find that credible, plausible eyewitness evidence,
25that people can smell something 20 kilometres away?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If the wind was blowing the right way from Treblinka, I

.   P-80

 1would think that was very credible.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have no problem with any of the eyewitnesses, with
 3accepting the evidence that they have given, the various
 4eyewitnesses, whether evidence given in court procedures
 5or afterwards, more recently, do you not suspect that they
 6may have been subjected to some kind of duress or bribery
 7or promises of better conditions or promises of an
 8alleviated sentence if they would just sign the document?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think one has to assume there is potential problems with
10all eyewitnesses, but this is one of the materials we
11have. It is a kind of source the historians have always
12used and must be used with care, but I would argue that
13one does not write it off categorically because it has
14potential problems.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, as an historian, it is your duty to weigh evidence
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     To look at it and say, "This one I accept and that one
19seems implausible"?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Or accept parts of this because he was in a position to
21have seen this himself. The second part of it may be
22hearsay and, therefore, it is no more reliable than what
23somebody else told him. So you can have parts of
24testimony that have greater evidentiary weight -- I would
25give them greater evidentiary weight than other parts.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have to rely on your own integrity and your own

.   P-81

 1judgment in deciding what to select and what to omit?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Historians are always making decisions about selection of
 3documents. We are in a constant process of selection.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     And, obviously, in a constant process of compression too
 5because you start off with an immense shelf of documents
 6you have to compress into a reasonable length of
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. We always have to make decisions about what is more
 9important than something else.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and you would be indignant if somebody called you
11perverse or manipulative or if you were accused of
12distorting because you left out a paragraph that just
13repeated what the paragraph above had said?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It would depend entirely on the context. If I had made a
15very egregious mistake and was caught out, I guess I would
16not have a right to be indignant.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you ever made mistakes?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Of course historians make mistakes, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Indeed. But nobody has accused you of wilfully distorting
20or manipulating because you have made a mistake?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have been accused of wilfully distorting.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you misread words in handwriting sometimes, in German
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I may have. I do not know that anyone has called it to my
25attention but I certainly have been accused by someone who
26wished me no good will of manipulating evidence.

.   P-82

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you ever read the book by, I think it is, Mr Paget QC
 2who was the Defence counsel of Manstein?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I have not read that book.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Manstein, of course, was put on trial for war crimes?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     By the British, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     By the British, yes. I cannot ask you about what it
 7contains. The Jager document, the Jager report now -- I
 8am now on page 7, paragraph 4.4, my Lord -- is this a
 9document from the Moscow archives, was it a Nuremberg
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe it is a Riga document, the Jager report.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you on 4.5?
13 MR IRVING:     4.4, my Lord. We are looking at the Jaeger
14document which is item 1944. You seem to prefer to
15work ----
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am sorry, it is a Moscow document.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     You seem to prefer to work from printed volumes of
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That will depend. If I am doing a detailed study of
20something like the Vehrmacht role in the shootings in
21Yugoslavia or the Police 101, I work in the original
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Original records?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In terms of a broader project, I will often avail myself
25of printed documents because one covers much more
26territory. For instance, the Goebbels diaries I would use

.   P-83

 1in their printed form, and at some point the Frank diaries
 2I have used in printed form, but when they referred in
 3there to things they did not include, and it is important
 4to me, then I go to the microfilms and look at the section
 5that they have omitted. Again, an historian makes
 6judgments about how best to spend the time.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Hold it there for a minute. You refer to the diaries of
 8Hans Frank. Hans Frank, of course, at a conference in
 9Cracau in December 1941, I think it was ----
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     December 16th.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- December 16th, he makes a pretty lurid statement
12about, "What do the people in Berlin think we are doing?
13We say liquidate them yourselves". Do you remember that
14passage roughly?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I certainly remember that passage.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Was there something left out of that passage? There
17was three dots in the middle of that passage. There is no
18need to look it up. You say things were left out of the
19printed texts?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, in the published ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Published version?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- published version, they take blocks of things and then
23they will have in brackets, they will say, "At this
24meeting to discuss these topics" or something of that
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Did they leave things out in a tendentious way, do

.   P-84

 1you think?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Usually, they leave out topics they think were not of
 3general importance. For instance, when I was looking at
 4the issue of the public health officials in the general
 5government and the editors, apparently, made a decision
 6that was not a topic of general interest, it was a
 7particular interest of mine, so then I went to the
 8microfilms and read a section in the original because it
 9was a topic ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are at the mercy ----
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- that was important to me.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- of our editors, are we not?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. No editor has told me I could not include something.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     But, I mean, in a volume like that of printed documents,
15the editor has to have very comprehensive knowledge to be
16able to make the right choices of what to leave in and
17what to take out?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     A bad editor would certainly render a collection of
19documents much less worthwhile than a good editor.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Can we now turn to paragraph 4.5? This brings us to
21the interesting document, my Lord, of August 1st 1941?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we ought to look at that document, if
23I may suggest it?
24 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship has got ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I know where it is. I have just been
26looking. It is the back of L, is it not?

.   P-85

 1 MR RAMPTON:     There is a file.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Has Mr Irving got the clip that you are
 3referring to?
 4 MR IRVING:     I have footnote 6 here which is the printed version
 5of it.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     We have taken the original out of Dr Longerich
 7documents and put it in here. It is 19A in this file at
 8page ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have it.
10 MR RAMPTON:     --- 19A.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, have you got this? It is probably
12quite useful to use this.
13 MR IRVING:     I am looking to see how original it is. I have
14sent a fax to Germany last night to ask for the original
15facsimile, but I do not think they are going to co-operate
16with me.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is as good as we have got at the
18moment. It is Abschrift but we have not got anything
19else, have we?.
20 MR RAMPTON:     The printed one is 19, my Lord.
21 MR IRVING:     This is a pretty important document. We have all
22agreed in this courtroom, I think. This is August 1st
231941, Muller to the Einsatzgruppen?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     A, B, C and D. (To the witness): Can you translate the
26line "betrifft"?

.   P-86

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Concerning or subject?
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Just translate that line, please.
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "The procuring of visual materials".
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     "The procuring of visual materials". I will translate the
 5rest of the paragraph and interrupt me if you
 6disagree. "The Fuhrer is to be provided with or to be,
 7there are to be submitted to the Fuhrer from here on a
 8current basis reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen in
 9the East. For this purpose, particularly interesting
10visual materials like photographs, placards, leaflets and
11other documents are needed. In so far as such material
12falls into your hands or can be obtained, I ask it to be
13transferred to here as rapidly as possible."
14     Would you read that as referring specifically to
15the killing operations of the Einsatzgruppen?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say the first sentence refers to the current
17reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen, and I think the
18likeliest, most plausible, interpretation is that is
19referring to the Einsatzgruppen reports, and then for the
20purpose, in a sense, of adding something to that, it would
21be especially interesting to get visual material.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of people being shot?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Nothing -- pardon?
24 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Of people being shot?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. No, it says ----
26 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Then what?

.   P-87

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It says want photos, placards.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Of what though?
 3 MR IRVING:     Other documents?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, they want documents, they want leaflets, they want
 5placards. They do not say pictures of what, pictures
 6relating to what the Einsatzgruppen are doing, presumably,
 7or captured Soviet pictures. We do not know.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     But the reference of this document, the subject matter, is
 9visual materials
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     But "in connection", that is for the purpose of keeping of
11the regular reports going to the Fuhrer, they would like
12-- in a sense, it implies already there is an ongoing
13process of the Fuhrer receiving reports and now they want,
14to sweeten that, they want visual aids to be added. My
15feeling is this implies a process already underway to
16which they now wish to add visual materials as well.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But the first time it says ----
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It does not say, "You shall begin to send reports to the
19Fuhrer". It says, "The Fuhrer is", you know ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Von hier", though, does that not rather suggest it is
21something that is starting up afresh?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, from Berlin, it says the "Fuhrer von hier" which
23means, of course, Berlin.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     It means "physical place". I thought it meant "from here
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, it is not "from here on". It is "out from here",

.   P-88

 1meaning Heydrich's office in Berlin.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I am with you, I follow.
 3 MR IRVING:     My contention is (and correct me if I am wrong)
 4that earlier today we established that the Einsatzgruppen
 5had several tasks of which killing was one, as indicated
 6in their reports?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     One paragraph was the killing and the other paragraphs
 9were the other tasks that they were involved in. Other
10tasks included the collection of intelligence documents
11and any material like that?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     And if this message from Muller to the Einsatzgruppen
14commanders, A, B, C and D, simply says, "Concerning visual
15materials, the Fuhrer is interested in the tasks of the
16Einsatzgruppen, he wants to be kept up-to-date on them.
17Please supply him with pictures, photographs, captured
18documents and the rest", am I not right in suggesting that
19this is not referring solely to the killing or possibly
20even to the killing at all?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is referring to the work of the Ensatzgruppen and,
22therefore, it does not exclude the killing, but it does
23not imply the killing is the only thing that is being
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     But, basically, it is inclusive if it says the work of the

.   P-89

 1Einsatzgruppen and, therefore, killing would be among the
 2things that would be reported on a regular basis to him.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, we have another clue, Professor. There is a lot of
 4documents in this bundle, and I am not going to ask you to
 5look through them all, but would you like to hazard a
 6guess on the basis of your expert knowledge at the
 7security classification of all the documents connected
 8with the Aktion Reinhardt or with the extermination
 9programmes? Would they be Verteilisch (Confidential) or
10Geheim (Secret) or Geheim Rasara(?) (Top State Secret)?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think some are Geheim -- are GOS, but there are, they
12vary and I think there are documents that do not have
13classification as well.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you look at the classification on this document and
15tell us what classification it is?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Geheim".
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, a very modest security rating?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not a security rating you would associate with a document
20concerned with the Final Solution?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, given that the contents going out, that there is
22nothing in here that stipulates, as you say, "Give us the
23reports and the photos of killings", there is nothing in
24the document that would require, as far as I can see, even
25a "secret".
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Except that even intelligence matters would normally rate

.   P-90

 1a security rating of secret anyway, would they not, like
 2collecting documents and things like that, am I right?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If there is a tendency to overclassify, someone could
 4possibly stamp that on even though, as far as I can see,
 5looking at this, there is no reason to classify the
 6document at all.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, it is a document of janitorial level.
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. It is a document that does not reveal anything that
 9if it were seen by others would pose any problem.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The Germans worked like that, did they, or
11the Nazis worked like that? If the ultimate topic was
12going to be secret, they did not introduce the higher
13security classification from day 1? Do you follow the
14question I am putting because I suspect maybe here we
15might operate differently, I do not know.
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I simply do not know whether individual documents in the
17same file will ----
18 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is my point.
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- have different, will have varying ones and, of course,
20we do not...
21 MR IRVING:     Professor, can I ask you to look at the letter
22register number or the file number just under the word
23"Eichzigereichts auf Kampt" ----
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     And after the letter at the end of that line is a letter

.   P-91

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     That indicates the file only has a secret rating?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It would certainly indicate that this particular number
 4has a secret rating.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just above his signature at the bottom of the document,
 6again ----
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We have the same file number, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     We have a similar file number, again with just the letter
 9G. So the whole thing they are talking and writing about
10is only G Geheim?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you be adventurous enough to hang a hypothesis on a
13document like that, or would you want to couch your
14hypothesis in the most guarded language and say this might
15quite possibly refer to the killing operations, on the
16other hand the document contains no specific reference?
17Would that be the way you would write it as a cautious
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say that it has a reference to the work of the
20Einsatzgruppen, and that we should interpret this as
21referring to all of the activities of the Einsatzgruppen.
22Because we have seen the reports, we know that includes
23killing, but someone looking at this letter from the
24outside would not know that.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Have you any reason to believe that Hitler was shown
26photographs of the killing operations?

.   P-92

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Were there placards connected with the killing operations
 3saying, you are to assemble at such and such a place?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There were such placards put up, yes.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you give me an idea? It is really the
 6scale of the thing. These Einsatzgruppen at this time,
 7because we are talking about August 41, you may not be
 8able to answer this, what proportion of their duties did
 9shooting people occupy?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     As of August 1 they would be just going into the
11transition of killing adult male Jews of particularly
12potential leadership classes, towards a policy of
13systematic extermination. So at this point, if I can use
14that unfortunate phrase, the body count would still be
15lower than the documents that come from the fall of 1941.
16The Jager, report for instance, shows August 15 as the
17astronomical jump from selected killing to massive killing
18of women and children. We have another letter from
19Lithuania, it is not part of this file, that says at
20August 7th they are shooting all Jews. So this is
21preceding that point by just a few days.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So, in a way, that is equivocal. It could
23mean from the date of this letter the information is
24necessarily going to include details of the numbers shot
25because the extermination programme is being accelerated?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That would be an interpretation we placed on it, based on

.   P-93

 1our inferences from the point of time, the chronology, a
 2possible interpretation.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes. The opposite contention would be they have not
 4actually been spending a huge amount of time doing these
 5awful shootings?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Most of the shootings are reported in the hundreds at this
 7point as opposed to the thousands and hundreds of
 9 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     So it is equivocal?
10 MR IRVING:     Not only that. I think that Professor Browning is
11right. I believe the first intercepts were mid August
12onwards, were they not, when they began reporting 30,000
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what he said.
15 MR IRVING:     I draw Professor Browning's attention once more to
16the subject line of that document. The document is only
17concerning provision of visual materials?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, but the reason for the procurement of visual
19materials is to supplement the fact that the Fuhrer is
20receiving regular reports. So we learn from a particular
21document about the procurement of visual materials, an
22existing policy of Hitler receiving current reports.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you -- I am not an expert on the
24Reichssicherheitshauptamt and I am not sure how much are
25you, but can you draw any conclusions from the desk
26number, shall we say, it is (iv), that was the Gestapo?

.   P-94

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then we have A1. Now, Eichmann was A something was he
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It changes over time. At one point I think it is 4B4,
 5that is the most common designation.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is right. Eichmann was 4B4. So what would 4A1 be?
 7Have you any idea?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     My guess is that it is the secretary, the administrative
 9centre. This would be his own personal office. I do not
10have an office plan. One could find that out with an
11office plan.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     A logical question arises from this document. Have you
13anywhere in any of the archives in which you have worked
14seen any documents generated by this request, either
15incoming to Muller from the Eastern Front or going from
16Berlin to Hitler in consequence of this?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have not seen any collections of photos that are marked
18as in reference to our order of August 1, these should be
19sent to the Fuhrer. I have not seen such a thing.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are there any collections of documents or placards or
21things relating to shootings on the Eastern Front that
22were sent to Hitler?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not ----
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Either demonstrably or otherwise in connection with this
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know of any evidence of particular photos or

.   P-95

 1placards that were sent.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     How many such reports on the work of the Einsatzgruppen
 3were actually sent to Hitler that we know of?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We do not know.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have we seen any at all in the archives?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We have seen various ones that are sent to different
 7places but none of them are marked as a copy that was sent
 8to the Fuhrer's headquarters or whatever, no.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Apart from the famous Meldung number 51?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Of December 1942?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which we will come to in chronological sequence. My Lord,
14do you have any further questions on that August 1st
15document? It is quite important.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. I think you have dealt with it very
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Can I add something?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Yes of course.
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is an example of a document that was available in the
21West fairly early. Gerald Fleming quotes it in his book
22which was published I guess in 1982. It is found in the
23Zentralstelle. This is when they got there. They sent
24the copy to the Institute. The copy he cites here is the
25copy in the Bundeschei. So there are at least three
26copies of this in Germany.

.   P-96

 1 MR IRVING:     Professor, would you agree that it is difficult to
 2form an opinion just on a loose sheet of paper like this?
 3You want to see the file it is in, is that correct?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We would always prefer to see the whole file. I do not
 5turn my back on an individual document because it is not
 6everything that I would wish.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you also agree that, when you see a document like
 8that, you should not jump up and down and say, Eureka,
 9this is the philosopher's stone I have been looking for.
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would be cautious not to yell Eureka, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     So historians in this respect are somewhat different from
12leading counsel, would you suspect?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, Mr Irving. Next question.
14 MR IRVING:     On the question of the body count figures, because
15of course I am very concerned about the totals that are
16contained in these documents, is there any paper trail
17leading to the figures, or are these figures -- which
18figures are credible because we have seen the supporting
19paperwork that went into them?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We have, for instance, the Jager report that goes in a
21sense from one Einsatzkommando to Stahlecker and then we
22have Stahlecker's reports, so we do have the building
23block there. We do not have a lot of what we would call
24the lower level papers from the Einsatzkommandos. We have
25some of the documents from the Gendarme Marie, such as the
26Brestotoft document that we have looked at.

.   P-97

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     How confident can we be that every time one of these
 2reports refers to so many thousand Jews being killed they
 3are actually Jews who are being killed?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We have enough cases in which I think other evidence can
 5corroborate that I am fairly confident. That is not in
 6exact numbers but that there was a policy to carry out
 7large executions, and that these are not numbers that are
 8wildly off, or that they are being faked, in the sense of
 9they are not being real executions being under way.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was there not a tendency among the Nazis just to lump all
11the people that are killed together as Jews, knowing that
12this kind of report would be particularly welcomed by the
13authorities in Berlin?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The Jager report shows that he was very careful in fact to
15identify Jewish men, Jewish women and children, and then
16other categories. A number of the Einsatzgruppen reports
17at different times, not in the global figures but for,
18say, summarizing the past two weeks, we will break down,
19so many saboteurs, so many communist functionaries, so
20many mentally ill and so many Jews. The tendency seems to
21be, at least on some occasions, to indicate that they are
22being fairly careful about separating and keeping track of
23their victims by category.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am going to put to you a passage from the British
25intelligence summary on these decodes which I have given
26you just a sample page of. These police decodes were

.   P-98

 1analysed very thoroughly during the war years on a current
 2by skilled British operatives. I will read you five lines
 3from the British intelligence summary dated September 12th
 41941, which is also referenced by Richard Brightman in his
 5book on page 96 and 219. That is the book on official
 6secrets. The wartime British summary says:
 7     "The execution of 'Jews' is so recurrent a
 8feature of these reports, namely the intercepts, that the
 9figures have been omitted from the situation reports and
10brought under one heading 3D. Whether all those executed
11as Jews are indeed such is of course doubtful. The
12figures are no less conclusive as evidence of a policy of
13savage intimidation, if not of ultimate extermination".
14Would you accept that the wartime British operators who
15were reading these reports on a daily basis concluded
16therefore that probably a lot of the people described as
17Jews were not Jews?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They concluded that. I think they concluded that quite
19erroneously. I think that they had a tendency
20consistently to underestimate the degree to which this was
21a priority of the Nazi regime, and that that is a theme in
22a sense that runs through the whole British response. For
23instance, they have earlier, in terms of Jewish refugees
24fleeing, they say we must help the political refugees but
25the Jews are "mere racial refugees", and therefore the
26implication not in danger. The British had a fairly

.   P-99

 1consistent record of underestimating the degree of hatred
 2and the degree of priority the Nazis regime had towards
 3the Jews.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you mean deliberately or because they
 5simply did not know what was going on?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They simply could not understand that it was a priority
 7for Hitler, but it was so foreign to their own way of
 8thinking that it made no sense. Why would you spend time
 9killing Jewish women and children when you are trying to
10fight a war? It was outside their realm, the way they
11understood the world.
12 MR IRVING:     If we go to page 8 in your paragraph 4.1, we are
13looking at the scale of the killings again, are all the
14Jews who are being killed, shall we say, native Jews, or
15do they include German Jews at this time?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The cases in which they would include German Jews would be
17Einsatzgruppen 3, reporting the five transports to Kovno
18by November 25. That may not be in there yet because that
19happens on the 25th and 29th. So that one would not
20include it. Einsatzkommando 2, whether that would include
21German Jews, I do not know. The others, there would not
22have been any deportation of German Jews to those areas at
23that point.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was there a distinction made at that time in the treatment
25between the German Jews and the non-German Jews? In other
26words, the new arrivals and the locals?

.   P-100

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, there was. For instance, in Minsk they murdered a
 2group of Russian Jews in order to make room for creation
 3of a ghetto for German Jews, and the transports of German
 4Jews to Minsk, unlike what happened at Kovno, they were
 5not shot upon arrival.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this not seem to indicate that there was no
 7systematic plan to murder all the Jews that they could get
 8their hands on?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think what it indicates is that they were not yet ready
10to do that. The references for instance in Himmler's
11letter to Greiser is that we want to send them to Lodsch
12and they will be sent on next spring.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Pretty haphazard, would you say, this lack of system in
14what they were doing?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not think it is haphazard. I think that they were
16engaged in the first stage. Different historians have
17interpreted it differently. My own feeling is that, by
18the fall of 1941, Himmler, Hitler and Heydrich have a
19fairly clear idea of where they are going now, which is to
20kill all Jews, but how that will be done, what exemptions
21will be given to Jews who are still important to the
22economy, in what order will various countries be
23approached, what special care must we deal with German
24Jews because of the possibly domestic repercussions, these
25issues are still not decided. They are decided over a
26period of time.

.   P-101

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     You slipped in something under the door there. You said
 2this was Hitler, Himmler and Heydrich. Where does "Hitler
 3and" come from? Is this just your own personal belief?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Given that they cannot have the Madagascar plan until it
 5goes to there, they cannot march Jews until it goes to
 6Hitler, they cannot deport Jews until it goes to Hitler,
 7they cannot let Jews out of the Netherlands for money
 8until it goes to Hitler. My inference is that this would
 9go to Hitler too. I do not see how ----
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is a difference between the geographical solutions
11that Hitler was constantly proposing and what was actually
12happening when the Jews arrived at their terminus, shall
13we say. Would it be fair to say that?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would say there are two phases. That is, starting in
15the summer of 1941, you have the move in early August to
16killing of all Jews, men, women and children, and that the
17implementation of systematic killing of Jews other than
18that really begins in the spring of 1942 with several
19exceptions. You have the Chelmno gassing beginning in
20December of 41, and you have the shooting of the six
21transports of German Jews five at Kovno and one at Riga.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     On November 30th, 1941?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The last one is the 30th, the other two are 25th and 29th.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     In Kovno?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In Kovno.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Since we are with those shootings, on what basis did those

.   P-102

 1shootings occur? Was that on orders from Berlin, or from
 2Hitler, or was it just random actions by the local
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is an area that we have no documents that illuminate
 5it, and so one then looks at the overall. Jager reports
 6it in his Einsatzgruppen report. He clearly thinks
 7that -- my inference from that would be that Jager is
 8reporting something that he thought he was expected to
 9do. We have, as you know, the Himmler intercept of
10December 4th, saying what happens to the Eastern Jews is
11on my guidelines, there are repercussions for Jackeln and
12there are none for under Jager. I would suggest that that
13would indicate that Jager was following orders.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     I will try putting this to you like this, and his Lordship
15may intervene because I do not have the file in front of
16me. My Lord, this is the bundle of intercepts that we
17dealt with about ten days ago, November 30th 1941.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. That got into E as well.
19 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship has the advantage on me because I do
20not have the bundle with me. I have searched for it and
21I am in chaos.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is really why I have been trying to
23insist all along that we identify where documents are
24going. If anybody on the Defendants side can help,
25I would be grateful. I think it is in E but it may not
26be. 173, J?

.   P-103

 1 MR IRVING:     We landed on this topic before I intended but,
 2since we are at it, we might as well take it on the fly.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Take your own course.
 4 MR IRVING:     If I were to show you an intercept of a message
 5from the -- can you find an intercepted message in there
 6from Bremen to Riga?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you help me? Did you say J 173?
 8 MR IRVING:     What is called on the top right hand corner?
 9 MS ROGERS:     Tab 3.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you. What are you looking for,
11Mr Irving?
12 MR IRVING:     There is an intercepted message from Bremen to
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This would be November 17th.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this describe a train load of Jews being sent to
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Has that train load apparently been well provisioned with
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. The guidelines for the deportations in the fall,
21which would have been true of all the transports, not just
22the ones to Kovno but to Lodsch and Minsk, where Jews were
23not immediately killed, they were allowed take a fair
24amount with them. In fact, the Jewish councils were
25encouraged to provide them, so that this would not be just
26this train, this would have been standard procedures.

.   P-104

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would one be correct in assuming, if one finds one or two
 2messages like that in this kind of random sample that the
 3British code breakers got by their method, so there are
 4probably quite a lot of such messages?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know about how many messages there were, but we
 6do know that the trains were basically sent out under the
 7same guidelines and the guidelines permitted at that
 8point, unlike in the spring, taking quite a large amount
 9of material with them.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The Jews provided ----
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This would have been provided by the Jewish councils to
12the deportation train.
13 MR IRVING:     And have you in front of there also a message in
14which there is reference in German to the train being
15provided not only with Verpflegung but also with Gerat.
16It is a similar message on 17th or the 19th or the 24th
17perhaps of November 1941.
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am afraid I do not find the file.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is page 5.
20 MR IRVING:     Page 5 of that bundle.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure we have the German in the file.
22 MR IRVING:     The German text will be there in facsimile.
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We have a series in English and I am not sure where the
24German is.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Gerat is there. It is really a translation

.   P-105

 1 MR IRVING:     The question is, if the train is not only taking
 2Verpflegung (food) which is set out, how many tonnes of
 3bread and so on, but they are also taking Gerat with
 4them. What would you understand by that word? What are
 5they taking?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Utensils and cooking pots and that sort of thing.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Things for a new life?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That they would need to use when they got there.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     To use when they got there. So the people who are at the
10sending end are unaware of what is likely to happen to
11this train load of Jews at the other end if they are all
12going to be killed? They think they are going to a new
13life, in other words not to their death?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you think you got an answer that you
15did not get. It is important sometimes to make sure that
16there is no misunderstanding. The translation that was
17given by Professor Browning was utensils and cooking
18pots. You then things for a new life, and I am not that
19that is something that the Professor has agreed with yet,
20but perhaps he does agree with that.
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe they were allowed to bring tools as well. I am
22recalling from memory what the Eichmann guidelines to the
23various police stations creating the transports, that the
24fall guidelines are remarkably different than the spring
25ones in terms of how much people were allowed.
26 MR IRVING:     Spring 1942?

.   P-106

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. In the fall of 41 which begins with them going to
 2Lodsch and begin with them going to Minsk.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am indebted to you. You are certainly adding to the
 4court's knowledge and this is helping to flesh out the
 5picture immensely.
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Were allowed bring a fair amount of luggage.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     So these early transports of Jews going to the Eastern
 8Front, they were going effectively to a new life, wretched
 9though it would be?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They were going to a temporary stay from which, as Himmler
11put it, they would be moved on further East the next
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Booted on somewhere else?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, we do not know. He does not say what "further East"
15means, but he was telling Greiser, do not worry, they will
16not be there for more than a few months.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, when the word came back to Hitler's headquarters that
18the first train load or several train loads had been shot,
19why would therefore Himmler have had to send a message to
20Jackeln, saying you have exceeded the guidelines?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Since nothing happens to Jager, my interpretation, because
22the documentation is incomplete, but my interpretation was
23that Himmler, after sending Jews to Lodsch and to Minsk,
24was sending them to Kovno, and he tried an experiment, we
25will shoot those when they arrive.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Who is this?

.   P-107

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We do not know, Jager. They are not shot immediately.
 2Jager reports this. In the Einsatzgruppen reports he says
 3very explicitly, "We shot these five transports". He is
 4not trying to hide anything. My guess, and again this is
 5just construing the documents, they found out that this
 6caused more of a sensation than killing Russian Jews, and
 7that, when the six transports left, Himmler says, back
 8off, we will not do this any more, tells Jackeln do not,
 9that message does not arrive in time, the six transport is
10liquidated. Then Jackeln is brought back and there are no
11more liquidations until the next spring.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     So we know what happened to Jackeln because the messages
13are there.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     But we do not know what happened to Jager, if anything,
16because there are no messages to inform us?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     We have no messages to inform us, but we do know that he
18reported it quite openly and clearly did not think he was
19doing something that he should not boast of.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     It tells us something ugly about the Nazi mentality, is
21that correct?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. I think it shows that he thought he was carrying out
23orders and was doing this according to what he had been
24told to do, and he was reporting that he had carried out
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     He then learned that in fact he had upset people?

.   P-108

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not think Jager learned he had upset people because I
 2think he was doing what he had been told to do. Jackeln
 3caught the flak because the message did not reach him in
 4time, that Himmler decided we were not going to start
 5liquidating German Jews yet. Then, when he calls Jackeln
 6back, Jackeln's memory of the conversation, in the
 7testimony he gave after the war in the Soviet Union, was
 8that he and Himmler discussed it and Himmler said, "I am
 9trying to decide how we will get rid of the German Jews",
10and he uses this phrase that occasionally pops up, "shall
11we send them into the swamps or shall we shoot them"? So
12he is still uncertain how this can be carried out.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     This Jackeln conversation you refer to is in Soviet
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would he have been under any kind of duress there, do you
17think? What happened?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He may be under duress for certain things. I do not know
19why someone would want to coerce a statement to the effect
20that Himmler had not yet made up his mind as to how he was
21going to get rid of German Jews.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     What happened to Jackeln? Did he meet his just desserts?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Jackeln was executed.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you had to say in a single phrase what it
25was that upset people about the Riga shootings, what was

.   P-109

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think that word spread very quickly. It was a sensation
 2when German Jews were being killed. We know, for
 3instance, that, when Lohse in the Ministry of the Interior
 4hears, he goes to his superior and says, I cannot do this
 5any more, I want another job. We know, for instance, on
 6the day of the 30th, Himmler meets with Dobtell, who has
 7had to travel through the East, and immediately thereafter
 8he sends out to Jackeln, do not liquidate this transport.
 9My feeling is that they were discovering that they had a
10PR problem, that one had to be more careful. Thereafter,
11for instance, they decide Theresienstadt will be a ghetto
12for the elderly Jews and the medal wearing Jews, that they
13will be more careful about how they deal with German Jews
14as opposed to non-German Jews.
15 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     It is the fact that they are German Jews?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
17 MR IRVING:     Who is making these decisions then?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In this case I think it is Himmler because Himmler, again
19it is just a guess, is going to see Hitler in two hours
20and that he wants to be able to say, we have taken care of
21it, it is settled, we are not going to have problems with
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     He expects to take some kind of flak now from Hitler for
24what happened?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not think he is going to take flak. I think he is
26going to assure Hitler that the PR problem is solved, at

.   P-110

 1this delicate part of the war there will not be reports
 2spreading around Germany of killing German Jews.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are familiar with the telephone call that went from
 4Himmler to Heydrich on November 30th at 1.30 pm?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     To Heydrich, transport of Jews from Berlin, kindly
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the spin that you would put on that particular
10message, do you think? How would you interpret that?
11What happened?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     My interpretation, and again because we do not have the
13full documentation, it is an interpretation.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Tantalising, is it not?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. If one has to send a message, do not liquidate,
16that, beginning with the Kovno shootings, Himmler in fact
17had said, we will begin shooting these transports. The
18Kovno operation backfired. He therefore, before he sees
19Hitler, takes measures that they will temporarily hold
20that in abeyance and sends that message out. You do not
21send it out unless you think you have to countermand
22something, so Jackeln, having had Jager kill five
23transports in Kovno, was prepared and ready to do the same
24thing with the incoming transport to Riga.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am going to interrupt you. I
26think this is a document that one needs to take a bit

.   P-111

 1slowly, and I am going to suggest we do it at 2 o'clock.
 2 MR IRVING:     Can I just enquire whether Jager was a subordinate
 3of Jackeln?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Jager is the head of Einsatzkommando 3, which is under
 5Stahlecker of Einsatzgruppen A, but all SS units in the
 6north would have been under Jackeln, who is the man to
 7co-ordinate the operations of the different SS formations
 8Einsatzgruppen Gendarmerie police battalions.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we look at the document----
10 MR IRVING:     My Lord, am I doing this right, do you think? Am
11I asking the right questions or would you prefer me to be
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If I may say so, it is cross-examination
14being conducted absolutely appropriately, but I would like
15to look at that document because I think it is an
16important one.
17 MR IRVING:     We will have it out, thank you.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     2 o'clock.
19 (Luncheon adjournment).
20(2.00 p.m.)
22Cross-Examined by MR IRVING, continued.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, Mr Irving?
24 MR IRVING:     My Lord, the document is in bundle J1.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
26 MR IRVING:     At tab 3, pages 11 and 12.

.   P-112

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
 2 MR IRVING:     This is the page from Himmler's telephone log
 3November 30th 1941. Do you recognize that page? Have you
 4ever looked at that either that page or the handwritten
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have seen the handwritten page. This is the first time
 7I have seen the English one.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Right, does it appear to be a page in Himmler's
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is consistent with the other writing in the log. I am
11not sure that I can recognize Himmler's handwriting.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is very difficult handwriting, is it not? Would you
13agree? Have you had difficulty reading Himmler's
14handwriting yourself?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have difficulty with all German handwriting.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you had made a mistake in reading handwriting like a
17letter E or an A, would you consider this to be wilful?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not really sure that that is a question
19he can answer.
20 MR IRVING:     Very well.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is a matter of argument and
22comment, but not for this witness.
23 MR IRVING:     You see that the first indication is that he is
24making telephone calls "aus dem Zug", from the train, is
25that correct?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     At the top, yes.

.   P-113

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that he is going to the Wolfsschanze. Can you tell
 2the court what the Wolfsschanze was?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That would be Hitler's headquarters.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Wolf's Lair, is that correct?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     At 1.30 p.m. he is apparently in the bunker because he is
 7making a telephone call "aus dem Bunker"?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     What does "aus dem bunker" mean?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "From the bunker".
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     "From the bunker", and he telephones on the left at 13.30
12-- who does he telephone?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     To Heydrich.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Heydrich?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     His deputy in Prague.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     His deputy in Prague. What function did Heydrich have at
17that time apart from his function in Prague?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He was the head of the Reichs security main office which
19included the security police and the criminal police in
20the security service.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     So that was the executive arm of the SS, was it,
22I suppose?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It was one of the two police arms, the ordinary police
24under Daleuge, the political and basic secret police, we
25would call it, under Heydrich.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     The ordinary police under Daleuge?

.   P-114

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     He telephones Heydrich and the content of the telephone
 3conversation are the four lines on the right column?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the first one is Verhaftung Dr Jekelius.
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     So far as we can read it. The second one is
 8"Angebl[icher] Sohn Molotow", "apparent son of Molotow",
 9is that correct?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Or "alleged son of Molotow".
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     "Alleged son of Molotow". Then can you read the next two
12lines, please?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Judentransport aus Berlin. Keine Liquidierung".
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are reading the handwriting?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I am looking at the handwriting right here.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do we know with a reasonable degree of probability what
17transport of Jews from Berlin was concerned, where it was
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This was going to Riga. The first transport to Riga.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Reference to a train load of Jews?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Stopping you there for a moment, Professor: if you knew
23nothing of the surrounding countryside of documentation at
24all, would any other interpretation of that line or those
25lines be possible without our 20:20 hindsight?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It would be an instruction not to, well, as I look at it,

.   P-115

 1it would be an instruction not to liquidate that transport
 2from Berlin.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is there any other way which ----
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Which I would also then say strongly indicates there is a
 5prior policy that this has to ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     That liquidation is in the air, so to speak?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, that, in fact, it had been ordered and now it has to
 8be countermanded is a possible -- I would say -- that one,
 9I would say, is the likely interpretation.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     That liquidation of Jews or German Jews or that
11liquidation of transports of Jews was in the air or that
12liquidation of Jews at the other end was in the air? We
13cannot say or can we?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, if it is "Judentransport aus Berlin Keine
15Liquidierung", it would imply that previous transports
16were being liquidated. In this case we know that five to
17Kovno were from documents that were also available at the
18time, the Einsatzgruppen report in which it is reported
19that those five transports had been liquidated in Kovno.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     I appreciate it is difficult to answer these questions
21from memory, but do you recall if there had bee transports
22from Berlin to the East before this one? Was this the
23first or?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, there is a group of transports first that goes to
25Louche(?) and then there is a group of transports that
26goes to Minsk. Neither of those were liquidated. Then

.   P-116

 1the third set of transports goes to Kovno. Those five are
 2liquidated. This is the first train of the fourth batch,
 3the one that is going to Riga.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     The ones that went to Kovno, what date were they?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe they were the 25th and 29th.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     25th and 29th?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is my memory.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was that the date they departed or the date they arrived?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe that is when the Einsatzgruppen reports them
10having been liquidated. Those would be arrival date.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would that fact have been known in Berlin at that time, do
12you think? First of all, in Berlin, would that fact of
13the liquidation have been known in Berlin?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     My guess is it was ordered in Berlin, that it would not
15have happened without instruction from Berlin, so, yes, it
16would have been known in Berlin.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Notwithstanding that the trains had been properly provided
18with all the provisions for starting a new life?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, because it was standard operating procedure for all
20the four transports, that if one at a certain point
21switched what was going to happen at the other end, the
22process of preparing the transports would not necessarily
23have been immediately changed. So that you would have had
24a situation where the people preparing the transports (and
25this had to be done days, if not weeks, in advance) would
26have been proceeding by the normal guidelines while the

.   P-117

 1order to do something at the other end could have been
 2given almost instantaneously.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     By the people on the spot?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, by Berlin, not necessarily from on the spot.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Were the Kovno, the Jews shot in Kovno German
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Those were German Jews, yes. Five transports of German
 9 MR IRVING:     You mentioned it was standard operating procedure.
10How do we know that? Are there any documentations or is
11this presumption on your part?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is inference from two facts. One is that it is
13reported openly in the Einsatzgruppen report, so that it
14certainly is no indication that it was done against orders
15or that he had any inclination that reporting this might
16get him in trouble; and from this the fact that the six
17transports, keine liquidierung, would indicate that he
18would not have said this if he had no idea what had
19happened in Kovno if there was no standing policy at that
20time to be killing Jews, and that this would indicate that
21he was reversing a policy, and I would infer that that
22policy began with Kovno after Louche and Minsk had sent
23without killing.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would the policy be described in German as "Richtlinien"
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is possible.

.   P-118

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     So when Himmler sends a message to Jeckeln on December 1st
 2(as we know he did now from the intercepts) saying, "Your
 3action in Riga has overstepped the guidelines", then in
 4what way had that overstepped the guidelines if the
 5guidelines were, as you have just presumed, that they were
 6going to be liquidated when they arrived? Surely,
 7exactly the opposite is the inference to be drawn from
 8Himmler's messages?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. If, in fact, you were not to be doing -- if you were
10supposed to be taking your guidelines from Berlin and he
11has sent a message "Keine Liquidierung", and it was
12liquidated, he is saying, "In principle, that what happens
13in the East happens under my guidelines". If there is not
14to be local decisions about who is killed or is not
15killed ----
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is not a more reasonable assumption the following, that
17when Berlin or when Hitler's headquarters learned that the
18earlier train loads of Jews to Kovno had been liquidated,
19an urgent message was sent when the fifth train went on
2030th November, saying, "Not to be liquidated" because it
21was realized at headquarters that things were going too
22far. Is that not an equally reasonable presumption on the
23balance of probabilities?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Not an equally reasonable presumption because otherwise,
25if that were the case, Jager would not have reported it in
26the way he did in Einsatzgruppen reports, making it clear

.   P-119

 1that he thought he had been following what was expected.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     But then, of course, the message came "not to be
 3liquidated", so Jager had obviously got it wrong?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, not Jager. Jeckeln -- the policy of killing the Kovno
 5Jews, I think, was approved from Berlin; that they then
 6decided to reverse that with the situation, the sensation
 7of killing German Jews was more delicate than they had
 8anticipated and, therefore, they temporarily backed off,
 9and then we have the Jeckeln/Himmler conversation, "I have
10not yet decided how we shall kill them", but this was,
11I would say it was a trial balloon and it turned out to be
12too sensitive an issue at that point.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     A trial balloon floated by the people on the Eastern
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, by Himmler.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Floated by Himmler?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just to remind the court of the hierarchy. Jager is, so
19far as we are concerned, on the bottom rung. Above him
20comes Stahlecker, as far as the killing operations goes,
21and although in a different headquarters, Jeckeln is the
22one who calls the shots?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Of course, everything is not quite that neat in Nazi
24Germany in the sense that Stahlecker could report directly
25to Heydrich because the Einsatzgruppen had been sent out
26by him. Jackeln would report directly to Himmler because

.   P-120

 1the SS and police leaders had been sent out by him. You
 2get sometimes straight lines and sometimes crossed lines
 3in terms of this, but Jeckeln is of a higher rank than
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     But, fortunately, for the purposes of this action, we are
 6only really concerned with what happens from Himmler
 7downwards. So although it is a terrible tangle of
 8guidelines and crossed lines below Himmler and below
 9Jeckeln, above Himmler it becomes relatively plain because
10above Himmler there is just Hitler?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Am I right in presuming that we have nothing to indicate
13any kind of systematic link between Hitler and Himmler
14apart from inferences?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is where there is no documentation and one acts from
16inferences and circumstantial evidence.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you very much. Does your Lordship wish to ask any
18more questions on that?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, just on that last answer. When you say
20there is no documentation, are you excluding from
21consideration (and it may be it is not relevant) the notes
22that Himmler made on the----
23 MR RAMPTON:     December 18th.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- agendas? Yes.
25 MR IRVING:     Shall we take December 18th?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. No documentation would be too strong. We do not

.   P-121

 1have regular documentation, but we have the diary now that
 2shows the December 18th meeting that they discussed this.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what puzzled me about your answer.
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am sorry. I would stand corrected on that. You are
 5perfectly right.
 6 MR IRVING:     Professor, believe me, I do not want to stampede
 7you into giving an ill-considered answer because it does
 8not help the court one bit. So let us now move on to the
 9middle of December, shall we say? You are familiar with
10the entry in the Goebbels diary of, I believe, December
1113th relating to a speech that Hitler had made to the
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was this speech by Hitler to the Gauleiters which was, in
15fact, made the previous day, December 12th 1941, in any
16way different from the old familiar Adolf Hitler
17gramophone record (as I always call it) in which he harked
18back to his prewar speech?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It does seem to be more than just I had predicted this in
20the sense that ----
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     And now it is happening?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Now it is happening now. There is a greater
23presentationist element in it, I think -- I would have
24look at the text to point out.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we find it? I have lost it because
26everything is in such a scattered ----

.   P-122

 1 MR IRVING:     It would be in Professor Evans' report, I think, my
 3 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, it is in the file, this new file, at 60
 4to 67.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When you say "this new file"?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Well, the Browning file.
 7 MR IRVING:     Page 67?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The Browning file is L1?
 9 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, amongst other things.
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And which is the page?
11 MR RAMPTON:     60 onwards, 60 to 67.
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
13 MR IRVING:     Page 64 that we are interested in.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
15 MR IRVING:     In the afternoon the Fuhrer speaks to the
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I have it now.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is where the reference to Hitler's speech begins,
19I believe?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do we have this in English or not?
21 MR RAMPTON:     It is ----
22 MR IRVING:     Then on page 66 is the passage that the Defence
23relies on, I believe.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, but it is in English, my Lord, I think a
25large part of it is in Evans' report, but as I do not have
26that here, I cannot tell your Lordship exactly where to

.   P-123

 1find it.
 2 MR IRVING:     Do you have that passage Professor? Page 66 or 498
 3of the printed text? It is the final paragraph: "With
 4reference to the Jewish problem, the Fuhrer has decided to
 5make tabula rasa" or a clean table. "He prophesized to
 6the Jews that if they would bring about World War once
 7more, then they would experience their own destruction and
 8this was not just an empty phrase". That is probably all
 9we need to read of that.
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. If one compares it, say, to Goebbels in August and
11they talk about the Fuhrer had prophesized, "The Russian
12Jews are paying now, the others, they will pay later"
13there is still a prophecy element. Here it is no longer
14what will happen in the future, but it is cast as if, when
15they said, "The Fuhrer has decided", it is cast as if
16things have already been decided, not as if there is a
17process of decision going on.
18     So, in that sense, it is not the same gramophone
19record because the August still has a future looking
20element. This one, everything is orientated towards or at
21least has the tone that all decisions have been made.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am so sorry. The documents in the shape
23they are in, I do not know, there are pages of German and
24there is no indication that I can see of what this is.
25 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it is page 498 ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I have the page, but is this from?

.   P-124

 1 MR IRVING:     It is the final paragraph on that page.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I know, but what is the whole of the
 3page and, indeed, what are the whole of the preceding six
 5 MR IRVING:     It is the Goebbels diary of December 13th 1941.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is Goebbels diary. I see.
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, and the question was, did I find this a repetition of
 8the same kind of speech Hitler had made before referring
 9to his prophecy, and I was recalling a document we do not
10have before us which was a Goebbels entry from August in
11which I pointed out there was still "and someone will pay
12in the future", well, here it is, it has been decided. So
13I was disagreeing with Mr Irving that it was the same old
14gramophone record.
15 MR IRVING:     Our problem is that the August Goebbels entry is
16not before the court and has not been submitted to the
17court either in the bundles or in the experts' reports, so
18we cannot really rely upon that.
19 MR RAMPTON:     If your Lordship would like a translation, it is
20to be found on page 337 at paragraph 8 of the Evans'
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
23 MR IRVING:     I am not going to ask you about the Hans Frank
24speech ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you mind pausing a second just whilst
26I catch up?

.   P-125

 1 MR RAMPTON:     The German is set out in note 46 at the bottom of
 2the page.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have the German all right, yes. You
 4interpret that, Professor, as being a reference to a
 5decision which has been taken and it is a decision
 6systematically to exterminate?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The question that Mr Irving had asked was, did I find this
 8a repetition of the frequent references to his prophecy
 9and "Was it the same old gramophone record?" was his
10phrase. I said, no, I did not think so because between a
11previous Goebbels entry describing a Hitler reference to
12the prophecy and this one, I have said there is a change
13of tone and a change of vocabulary. So I disagreed.
14I said this does not, this is not the same kind of
15reference to something in the future. And so I happen to
16think that it is the point at which Hitler makes clear
17that even though the war will now go on longer, that,
18nonetheless, they will proceed with the extermination. Up
19until that point they used two phrases "after the war" and
20"next spring". After Pearl Harbour, one has to clarify
21which of those two it will be and, in my opinion, this is
22the point at which Hitler says it will be next spring even
23though it will no longer be after the war.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
25 MR IRVING:     Professor, I will now have to bore you by asking
26you to look at the actual German used. Is this German

.   P-126

 1passage in the subjunctive in German, indicating reported
 2speech or could it be Goebbels himself writing his own
 3words here, so to speak?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is not in subjunctive, but I do not know that that
 5would exclude that he is writing an easier ----
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Let me put it this way around: if in the second line he
 7had written "Er hat den Juden prophezeit" but "er habe den
 8Juden prophezeit", then it would be beyond doubt, would it
 9not, that he was quoting Hitler?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That would indicate that he was paraphrasing very closely,
11but this would not exclude the possibility, and indeed
12I think that is what it is, is a, you know, writing down
13what Hitler had said.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with reading the Goebbels diaries in
15English or in German as a source? Not scientifically
16familiar, but have you used them quite a lot.
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have used them, but I have not read through all of
18them. I do not know the entire corpus but I have used
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you agree that it is sometimes difficult to
21distinguish when Goebbels is referring to what somebody
22has told him and when his only little benevolent mind
23takes over?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not think I could answer that.
25 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, may I interrupt? This might be a
26convenient moment. Mr Irving said just now that the

.   P-127

 1earlier entry of 19th August 1941 is not in the
 2documents. It is twice in the Evans' report. It is at
 3page 410 at paragraph 7.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But not in this J1?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     No.
 6 MR IRVING:     I am indebted to you.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Perhaps I should read it out.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Hang on. If we are going to have to find
 9it ----
10 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, page 410 of Evans, my Lord. The witness's
11memory is, fortunately, very accurate, but it is perhaps
12worth just looking at. This is Evans' translation on 19th
13August 1941: "We speak about the Jewish problem. The
14Fuhrer is convinced that his former prophecy in the
15Reichstag, that, if Jewry succeeded once more in provoking
16a world war, it would end with the annihilation of the
17Jews, is being confirmed. It is being rendered true in
18these weeks and months with a certainty that seems almost
19uncanny. In the East the Jews have to pay the price; in
20Germany they have paid it already in part and in future
21they will have to pay yet more. Their last refuge remains
22North America; and there they will also to pay some time,
23sooner or later".
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
25 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry that Professor Browning has not got
26that in front of him.

.   P-128

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
 2 MR IRVING:     The passage is, in fact, also in the Goebbels
 3biography. Unless your Lordship feels it necessary,
 4I would prefer not to deal with the Hans Frank meeting at
 5this point.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Take your own course.
 7 MR IRVING:     Yes. We dealt with it pretty exhaustively I think
 8already in my cross-examination, and I am not sure that
 9unless the witness has specific points he wishes to make
10about it, the Cabinet meeting in Cracau, you will
11remember, on December 16th where Hans Frank referred to,
12"What does Berlin imagine? Do they imagine we are
13housing the Jews in housing estates on the Eastern
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would only add on that, that earlier in the entry before
16he gets to that speech, he refers to his visit with
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And whether that refers to the Gauleiter meeting or the
20possibility that he had a separate private talk with
21Hitler, we do not know, but "besuch bei", you know, "von
22Fuhrer" would indicate a strong possibility that he met
23with Hitler privately, as he usually did when he came back
24to Berlin, in which case then he went off and gave this
25speech, it was not just listening to the Gauleiter but
26after a conference, possibly after a conference, with

.   P-129

 1Hitler as well.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But, as you are familiar, you say with the Hans
 3Frank diary, both in the printed version and on the
 4microfilm, will you agree that there is no diary entry
 5relating to a separate meeting with Hitler in December
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. He reports on the 16th that he had a visit with the
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     So his subsequent remarks may or may not have been an
10allusion to what he learned from Hitler's private
11meeting? Is this the point you are trying to make?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am saying there is the possibility that, in addition to
13witnessing the talk that Goebbels records in his diary,
14that he also had a private meeting with Hitler.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     But we cannot prove that definitively.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Will you turn to page 77 of this little bundle,
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we are back on J1.
21 MR IRVING:     Back on J1.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is another untranslated German document.
23 MR IRVING:     Well, my Lord ----
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have three here. I am not sure which one we are dealing
26 MR IRVING:     In my little bundle, which is the one with the

.   P-130

 1intercepts in, your Lordship will probably find it
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     J1?
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     L1. It could scarcely be more
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, I have 77.
 7 MR IRVING:     Do you have the text?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am afraid I have not yet. Sorry.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have the German. I do not have the...
10 MR IRVING:     The English translation.
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, but that is all right.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you have the transcript?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, where have we put your documents,
14Mr Irving? Do you know? Was it E?
15 MR IRVING:     E.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Does anybody on the Defence side know?
17Frankly, this is so inconvenient and time consuming.
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I quite agree. I do not know what is even
19being referred to actually.
20 MR IRVING:     The little clip of documents on decodes. I think
21it was called "Himmler".
22 MR RAMPTON:     I do not have a J file, as you know perfectly
23well. J1, tab 3, page 23, my Lord. There is no English.
24It is some Himmler writing, my Lord. It is the entry of
25the 18th December 1941 where Himmler writes under
26"Fuhrer": "Als partisanen auszurotten."

.   P-131

 1 MR IRVING:     Have you found it in German?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sorry.
 4 MR IRVING:     Can you read the words either in the ----
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, I think you had better wait until the
 6Judge finds it.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I fear what may have happened is that, unless
 8I have put it back in the wrong place, my J1 is -- J1, tab
 93, page, sorry, Mr Irving?
10 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, page 23.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
12 MR IRVING:     Can you read the first word?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It would be "Fuhrer Hauptquartier Wolfsschanze", 18th day
14of the 12th month of '41 at 4 o'clock in the afternoon,
15"Fuhrer, Judenfrage".
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Then on the left is "Judenfrage".
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Als partisanen auszurotten".
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     How would you translate those two things, first of all,
19the "Judenfrage"?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Judenfrage" I would translate as meaning a discussion on
21the Jewish question. It would be one word as the topic of
22the discussion and "als partisanen" and "auszurotten"
23would be a note that he had made to remind him of what the
24substance or conclusions of that talk had been.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The handwriting is different, is it not? I think we
26are agreed on both sides that this is the conclusion, that

.   P-132

 1they have come to the conclusion "als partisanen" and
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     How would you translate that?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "To be destroyed as partisans", depending how we translate
 6"auszurotten" which has multiple meanings, but I would
 7say to exterminate or to destroy as partisans.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     "As partisans" or "like partisans"? I hear groans from
 9the public gallery, but, in fact, this is an important
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. No, it is a good point and I think, in fact, I have
12translated it as partisans. In German it could be ----
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     In other words, it is an equity between "Juden" and
14"partisanen" and not a comparison which would be "vie",
15not "als". If it had said "vie partisanen auszurotten",
16that would be a different meaning, would it not?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     "Vie" would be in the same way.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the same way as?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     But it does not say that, does it?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It does not use vie.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     It says "als partisanen", so the Jews who are being
23referred to here are to be liquidated as the partisans
24they are?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, I do not believe that is necessarily----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am extremely sorry to

.   P-133

 1interrupt. I am still trying to find this. I have J1,
 2tab 3. There are two pages 23, neither of which appears
 3to be the document you are asking about.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     That is because the one on the bottom of the page,
 5which is Mr Irving's page number, has become obliterated.
 6Try a little printed 293, can I suggest?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     It is the one after 22, which is legible.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Which nobody has bothered to transcribe, is
 9that the problem?
10 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know why.
11 MR IRVING:     Transcribe or translate?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Transcribe, or indeed translate.
13 MR IRVING:     In my little clip it is transcribed, my Lord.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I wonder why I do not have that advantage?
15 MR IRVING:     That would be in the same one as my SS police
16decodes, I think, my Lord.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is this translated anywhere or indeed
18transcribed anywhere?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. I will find it in the bundle. Page 11 of
20Professor Browning's report, my Lord. It is also in
22 MR IRVING:     Shall I wind back my argument a little bit?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am afraid you will have to. I am sorry you
24are having to do it. It is increasingly frustrating,
25having to deal with the documents.
26 MR IRVING:     The only reason for doing this is because

.   P-134

 1I apprehend that both the defence and also opposing
 2historians pin a lot of faith on this document.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. It is a very important document, which
 4is why one would like to have it in an easier form.
 5 MR IRVING:     We have only four words to go by, Judenfrager, als
 6Partisanen and auszurotten. I am not going to argue about
 7the meaning of the word auszurotten there. It is quite
 8plain. But I am going to argue about the significance of
 9the word als. Quite clearly the intention here is that
10these Jews are to be liquidated as partisans and not like
11partisans. If it was to be like partisans, the word would
12be vie Partisanen auszurotten?
13 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     And as partisan is how I have interpreted it, that this is
14a convention, or the way in which the killing will be
15organised or justified or disguised.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Professor, this is a later stage of the argument. First of
17all, I want to establish this stepping stone in my
18argument. To make the point, to hammer home what I mean
19by this rather subtle difference, I eat n orange like a
20tangerine, you use the word vie. We now have Hitler as
21Fuhrer, as is als. One is the equation. The other one is
22a comparison?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have the point. It is a perfectly
24comprehensible point. What is the answer?
25 MR IRVING:     Yes. Your answer again, Professor?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     As I said, it was agreed, the annihilation or

.   P-135

 1extermination of the Jews would take place, they would be
 2annihilated as if they were partisans, as partisans, that
 3will be the conventional way in which they speak about it
 4or the guise under which it will be done.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     But then the correct German would be vie and not als?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. If you were going to kill them, the operation, we all
 7use the same operational methods against them, but they
 8did not because they killed women and children, partisans
 9they did not, so it is not we will do it in the same way,
10but we will kill the one as if they were the other, as the
11cover under which to kill the other.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point that is being put is that als does
13not mean as if. There is another German expression for
14that. Not just vie, there is another one as well, I
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think vie would be, we will kill them in the same way as
17we kill partisans. It applies to an identical method.
18The als I would interpret as the justification for it or
19the cause for it.
20 MR IRVING:     Perhaps I could put in two different ways? This is
21like when you have a dictionary which gives two or three
22different meanings of the word in different orders of
23likelihood, and the one that I give is the primary
24meaning, but there is a possible secondary meaning which
25is the one you are offering?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know in which order they came in the dictionary

.   P-136

 1so I cannot say which is first or second.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     I know which order they come in the German language, and
 3this is that als means as direct equivalence, whereas vie
 4means like, which is not direct equivalence.
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have translated as. We will both agree we are using the
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     You were using the correct translation and I am drawing
 8attention to the significance of that. They are to be
 9liquidated as the partisans that they are, and that is the
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is adding a whole series of phrases that is the birth
12of your imagination. There is nothing in here.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     The burden of the word as or als, whether we like it or
14not, and if we are going to make this a key document of
15our argument, it is dangerous to try and suggest that,
16well, the secondary meaning is probably the one I am
17looking for because that is the one that fits in with my
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have used the primary word. It is you who are inventing
20a whole series of words that do not exist on the page, and
21that is the sheerest fantasy in which I do not share.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     I do not want to labour the point, but als is definitely
23an equivalence rather than a comparison, is it not?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have translated it that way, but I did not add a whole
25further series of words which you have chosen to add which
26have no documentary basis.

.   P-137

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can we go now to page 11 of your report, which is the same
 2page that this document comes from, and look at paragraph
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 11 of your report. Paragraph 4.1.7?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct. I have got it.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     This brings us to the famous Meldung No. 51, the report
 8number 51 by Himmler to Hitler.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we try to see if we can locate it unless
10you think it is not necessary?
11 MR IRVING:     I do not think it is necessary, my Lord, I am just
12going to deal with the meaning of the word vorgelegt. As
13you correctly point out in this paragraph, this report
14was, as you say, submitted on 31st December 1942, and the
15word submitted in the German document was vorgelegt. Is
16that right?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is how I translated it, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is correct, and the initial that went with it was
19Hitler's adjutant Pfeifer. Am I correct?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     When it comes to Hitler's Adjutants' initials I would
21defer to your recognition of that. I am not an expert in
22the initials of his Adjutants.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not sure that Mr Rampton would be happy to have you
24deferring to me in any matter of expertise?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would be happier to have the document in
26front of me. Does anybody have any idea where it is?

.   P-138

 1 MR RAMPTON:     It is here. I am just trying to find it. It is
 2L1, tab 7, page 140. In fact, I would recommend even
 3going back as far as page 138, where we see it in a prior
 4incarnation before it got reformed into the Hitler legible
 5large type on page 140.
 6 MR IRVING:     I am quite happy to do that. This is one of the
 7few examples, is it not, Professor, where we have a bit of
 8a paper trail, do we not?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
10 MR RAMPTON:     I hope the Professor can find it.
11 MR IRVING:     In the thick bundle. Have you found it?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes I have both.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Both the preceding document, as Mr Rampton has rightly
14pointed out, containing the same figures, and the large
15large typeface version on page 140. I am just
16referring to this top line where it says Vorgelegt and
17then the date and then the initial PH for Pfeiffer.
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to make anything about the initial. If you
20had seen a preceding document, report No. 50, which is not
21in this file, and if it had got the word Vorgelegt on it
22twice, with two successive dates on it, Vorgelegt on 29th
23December and Vorgelegt on 30th December, what would that
24tell you?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That he had brought it back a second time.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Why had he had to bring it back twice?

.   P-139

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have no idea.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the logical reason why he would have had to bring
 3it first one day and then put it on Hitler's breakfast
 4tray again the following day?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It could be either that he had not read it or that he
 6wanted to see it again.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     So the fact that word Vorgelegt is on a document does not
 8necessarily mean that it had been read?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It does not prove that it had been read, because there is
10no Hitler initial that says "read by", which you sometimes
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen any documents anywhere in the archives where
13we can tell that Hitler has read a document? Would it
14have a different notation on it?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you familiar with the notation Fuhrer hauptkentness,
17or something like that? F hauptkentness?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     And there is no such reference on this particular
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. That does not have such a reference.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     would I be, on the balance of probabilities, right in
23saying, although it is likely that the document was
24submitted to Hitler, it is not proven that it was read by
25Hitler, this particular document we are looking at?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     One can say that we have very strong evidence that it was

.   P-140

 1submitted, but we do not know for certain that he read it.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you know what else was happening at Hitler's
 3headquarters around that time, what was happening to his
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, of course, he was worrying about Stalingrad.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was worrying about Stalingrad, yes, thank you very
 7much. Moving on to page 12, paragraph 4.2.1, this is the
 8document from the Moscow archives, is it not, instructing
 9the local SS units to assist the local anti-Semites in
10starting their own pogroms and keeping out of it
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     To instigate the pogroms without leaving their own
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a remarkable document, is it not? Has this just
15recently come into our possession, or has it been around
16for many decades?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The earliest to which I saw reference was when Helmut
18Krausnik refers to it in his big work on the
19Einsatzgruppen which was published, I believe, in 1979 and
20then it was subject to considerable debate between himself
21and Alfred Streim at the conference in 1982. So it has
22been a document that has been referred to among historians
23for now 20 years.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you in three lines sketch for the court the nature of
25the debate?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The nature of the debate was whether there had been an

.   P-141

 1order to the Einsatzgruppen prior to the invasion of the
 2Soviet Union to kill all Jews, or whether that order came
 3later, and the question was, was gedrangtform or
 4compressed form a quick way of referring to a
 5comprehensive order which was what Helmut Krausnik argued,
 6or do we take the order more literally and, when Heydrich
 7says they will kill all Jews in state and party positions,
 8to see that as a beginning of the campaign to kill Jewish
 9leadership but not yet a comprehensive order to kill all
10Jews, women and children included. That was the nature of
11the debate.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you were to give an overview of the killing programme
13during 1941 on the Eastern Front, would be it correct to
14say that initially the victims were Jewish males of an
15able-bodied military age?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The first victims were Jews that were considered in
17leadership positions, or Jewish males in general.
18Sometimes they would be anyone from 16 and 55, sometimes
19it would be they want the lawyers and the doctors, not the
20doctors, they would usually be spared, bring us the
21leadership of the town. So that it was a selective
22killing and not a total killing, I argued, until August
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Were there military reasons for carrying out these
25operations or purely ideological at that stage?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     My feeling was that this was more ideological than

.   P-142

 1military, that these people do not present a military
 2threat to the Germans of any significant kind, and that
 3this was part of Heydrich's preventative war to take away
 4the leadership of the Jewish community, and that this was
 5a police purge, we might say, and not a strictly military
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you saying that they presented no threat to the
 8Germans of any military kind?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No significant threat. I do not think the 50 year old
10Rabbi represents a military threat to the Germans and he
11would be the kind of person.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am older than 50 and I would certainly be capable of
13pointing a gun at someone.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If you had a gun, and they did not have guns. Capable of
15it, but the fact is that there is very little record that
16Jewish resistance was a cause of the German action, that
17it should be out here very, very early. The orders given
18-- put it this way. The July 2nd document refers to the
19verbal conversation Heydrich had with his Einsatzgruppen
20leaders before the invasion, and then on July 2nd he sends
21in compressed form a summary of that to the higher SS and
22police leaders. So that the orders to kill Jews and state
23and party positions precedes the invasion and is not the
24result of any actions by Jewish communities that could be
25construed as resistance justifying military repression.
26It is a pre-emptive measure decided on prior to invasion.

.   P-143

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not right to say that the event reports the
 2Erreichnichtsmelderung August 1941 onwards primarily
 3referred to the emergence of partisan activity which is
 4being led or supported by the Jews?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     There are frequent references to Jews as if Jews and
 6Bolshevic Jews and partisans are the same thing. But, if
 7one goes down a lower level to people who are reporting on
 8partisans for the purpose of what counter measures one may
 9take, what I have seen of these is that it is not until
10the summer of 42, and the reference is Jews are fleeing to
11the forest and joining the partisans because of our ghetto
12liquidation campaign. The Germans are creating a Jewish
13partisan danger because these people are fleeing the death
14that awaits them if they do not.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I am sorry, I am going to have to
16interrupt you again. I am sorry to do so. We have had
17quite a lot of evidence about a document which I have
18eventually tracked down. There seem to be two versions of
19it, both in German, and I do not know where, if anywhere,
20I find an English version.
21 MR IRVING:     Which document is this, my Lord?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is what he has just been talking about,
23the July 2nd 1941 document.
24 MR RAMPTON:     The key part of the document is on page 11 of
25Professor Browning's report.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think that is really enough. Is

.   P-144

 1that it as far as a translation goes?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     The key part is in paragraphs 4.16 and 4.17. It is
 3also set out in full in Longerich and Evans.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In full in Longerich?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Longerich 2, page 67.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What would help me, rather than just having
 7wodges of German text, is some sort of cross-reference.
 8There really is not time for me to plough my own way
 9through, with my inadequate German, to find the passages
10that matter so, if I could be provided with a
11cross-reference for where I find a translation, I would be
12very grateful.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. With these documents it is fairly
14straightforward because the footnote reference is at the
15bottom right hand corner of the page. These are all
16Browning documents. Therefore, if one uses the footnote
17reference, one can go straight to the relevant passage in
18Browning. It is more difficult with the Evans report but
19this is quite straightforward. If one looks, one sees
20that it is footnote 28 in this particular case, and one
21finds it therefore. That is how I found it in Browning.
22One finds it then on page 11.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Longerich or Browning?
24 MR RAMPTON:     No, Browning, my Lord. Footnote 28 follows this
25sentence, "On a separate line for Jews executed is listed
263,663,211", which is what the document says.

.   P-145

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If I am not mistaken.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I must be being stupid. You have just
 3referred me to footnote 28 in Browning.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, which is on page 11.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How does that help me get an English
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Because it is translated in part at the top of the
 8page, reports to the Fuhrer.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     My Lord, I believe we have moved on to a new document,
10which is the July 2nd.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is what I thought I was asking about.
12 MR RAMPTON:     I am so sorry, I thought we were still in December
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. We have had quite a lot of evidence
15about the July 2nd 1941 document, which is why I said I
16really must see what is actually said.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Browning, page 12.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 12?
19 MR RAMPTON:     Your Lordship will find a cross-reference index at
20the front of this bundle of Browning documents. Every
21single document that is referred to in the index has its
22footnote number behind it.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I follow that, but what I am looking for is
24an English translation, and which I do not think is an
25unreasonable request because this is a document that is
26quite important.

.   P-146

 1 MR IRVING:     My Lord, while they are looking, I hesitate to
 2indulge in one-upmanship, but I have translated the next
 3document I am going to give to your Lordship.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That would be helpful. This does not apply
 5to all documents. I do not think I am being
 6unreasonable. Where it is quite important I think I ought
 7to be provided with an English text.
 8 MR IRVING:     I have also translated the Funfach letters for your
 9Lordship from the Dresden argument.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Wait until we get to the next document
11because I really do want to find out where, if anywhere, a
12document which I think both sides attach importance to is
13to be found. I am afraid I am not really understanding
14the footnote cross-references. Am I going to be provided
15with them or not? That was a question.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I am so sorry, I did not hear it as a question.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I will say again. I think that the document
18of July 2nd 1941 is quite an important document. I have
19seen extracts referred to in paragraph 421 of Browning and
20I have seen a footnote in Browning but, as far as I have
21been able to find out, there is only the German text and
22I am suggesting that, if there is an English text, I would
23like to see it.
24 MR RAMPTON:     All that the experts feel is important about this
25document is set out in their report.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I am not sure that can be entirely

.   P-147

 1right because we have had a great deal of evidence from
 2the witness about it which is not contained in the
 3report. That is not a criticism of the witness at all,
 4but is this an important document?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry. I agree it is an important document
 6but I have to say only in the respects which the
 7witnesses, both of them, Longerich and Browning, have
 8noticed in their reports, which to this effect, if I have
 9understood what this discussion is about, to this effect.
10The hand of the SS was to be hidden in the instigation of
11pogroms. It is there, if I am on the right document.
12 MR IRVING:     My Lord I will prepare a translation of that
13document overnight, the relevant parts.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you would. It does not appear that we are
15going to get it from the Defendants.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I will do it, my Lord. If it is a document that
17it turns out we rely on for some purpose beyond that which
18appears in the expert reports, of course, then we must
19have it translated. But if, for our purposes, it is
20sufficiently represented and translated in the expert
21reports, then I do have to say we cannot go through these
22bundles translating everything that anybody might want to
23look at. For one thing, it takes too long and for another
24it is very expensive.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Why I am being provided with wodges of paper
26consisting of pretty incomprehensible extracts, often not

.   P-148

 1giving any indication where they come from? I just do not
 2follow the object of the exercise.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     When the expert reports were prepared, we asked
 4the experts, as one would expect, to prepare lists and
 5bundles of the sources for what they say.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     This is what we have all around the walls.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     That is what this is. Should there be some
 8important document which requires to be translated in full
 9as we have done in some cases, why then we shall do it.
10But I do not see this as being such a document for my
11part ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much. We will move on in that
14 MR IRVING:     Witness, we were discussing the question of whether
15the Nazis were just killing the able-bodied, military aged
16Jews whom they captured or whether the killing was being
17extended to include also the women and the children. We
18talked about a 50 year-old Jew as an example. Can I ask
19you to turn to -- there is a document dated August 6th
201941, which is referred to on page 15 of your report. It
21is footnote 42 is the document.
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Footnote 42, yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 20 of the little bundle, apparently.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Might I again, your Lordship, intervene here to
25explain exactly what I mean -- I do not mean to be
26troublesome or difficult -- in relation to this document.

.   P-149

 1I know this document, something about it. It is
 2well-described in Professor Browning's report, what it
 3is. The only bit which actually really matters is the
 4piece of manuscript right at the end of the document which
 5appears on the its third page.
 6 MR IRVING:     Mr Rampton, do you mind if I tell his Lordship what
 7matters about the document.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Well, if you want to tell his Lordship ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, to be fair to him, I have been being
10critical and he is just trying to be helpful and show me
11what ----
12 MR IRVING:     On its way to your Lordship is a translation of the
13entire document.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am going to put that into this tab of J.
15Do you include the manuscript, Mr Irving?
16 MR IRVING:     Yes, that is the final paragraph on the page.
17 MR RAMPTON:     In that case, I think we should have a copy of the
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have you not got one?
20 MR RAMPTON:     No.
21 MR IRVING:     It was done at a relatively early hour this morning
22and I am afraid ---
23 MR RAMPTON:     That is not a criticism. I think we should have
24it is all I am saying.
25 MR IRVING:     Yes, but I will refer to the passages in the German
26text and ----

.   P-150

 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I am going to keep this for the
 3 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But we will read it out to you.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, of course.
 6 MR IRVING:     Do you recognize this document?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I want to make sure we are talking about the same one.
 8This is the Stahlecker to Jager of August 6th 1941.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     August 6th 1941.
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The [German - document not provided].
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. This is a document that is Gerald Fleming sent me a
13copy of that he had gotten in Riga.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     In Riga.
15 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, that is page 15, paragraph 4.2.6 of
16Professor Browning report.
17 MR IRVING:     Are you familiar with an author Eser Guilis(?)
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, the man who writes on the Final Solution in Latvia,
19Andrew Eser-Guilis.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is his kind of area, is it not?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is an area he has written a book on, yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     In this document, if I may summarize in advance, is it
23correct to say that quite clearly the people who are
24writing this draft are planning for the Jews to survive in
25gettoes, August 6th 1941?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     The civil administration is preparing a set of guidelines

.   P-151

 1that implies the ghettoization of Jews and that is to
 2which Stahlecker is objecting, that they should not be
 3dealt with here as in Poland, that here they are a greater
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and if you can turn to page 2 of the document, the
 6second line of the second paragraph, I will translate it.
 7Roughly it says: "This draft evidently plans the steps
 8suggested under paragraph 5 for the umsiedlung of the
 9Jews, the resettlement of the Jews, not as an immediate
10step, but is to be regarded as a later, gradual
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is the civil administration guidelines to which he is
13objecting, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     And the idea is that they are going to keep the Jews, if
15they fall into the Nazis hands, in separate camps, keeping
16the sexes apart so they are not going to get -- they are
17not going to increase? They are going to keep them alive
18but so that they will gradually die out, effectively, as a
19race. This was the plan in that?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is what he is referring to as the civil
21administration guidelines that he is criticising, that
22they envisage marking forced labour ghettoization and he
23is telling Jager that these are not acceptable.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     And if you turn to the final page, there are four
25proposals listed there, one of which, the first one, is an
26almost 100 per cent immediate cleansing of the entire

.   P-152

 1Ostland of the Jews?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     The second proposal is preventing them from procreating,
 4from multiplying?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Correct.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     The third proposal is the possibility of the intensive
 7exploitation of Jewish manpower which, of course, you
 8cannot do if you are killing them. And the fourth
 9one ----
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     You cannot do it by killing all, but you can do it if you
11separate out skilled workers and kill most.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     The fourth one is a considerable alleviation of the later
13transporting away of the Jews into a Jewish reservation
14somewhere outside of Europe?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     So all of these are a much more modest form of the Final
17Solution, are they not, not involving killing, being
18proposed here by the man who drafted the document?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He lists those as four possibilities. We know, of course,
20from two things down below he says this all touches on
21orders and Jager, within a week, is killing all women and
22children and ----
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are ----
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     --- Stahlecker's own report later ----
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are rushing ahead.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are rushing ahead. Just pause a minute.

.   P-153

 1 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I am only relying on this document purely
 2to show that whoever drafted the document (and the
 3Professor will tell us in a moment who it was) the draft,
 4the typescript draft, is making certain proposals of a
 5very general and non-lethal form for the treatment of the
 6Jewish problem in the occupied Russian areas.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 8 MR IRVING:     And that there is then a very important handwritten
 9comment by Stahlecker on which I rely. I will read out
10the handwritten comment in German first. "Ich halte es
11... (reading to the words in German - document not
12provided)... Stahlecker". Does Stahlecker in that rather
13complicated final paragraph, that postscript by him, his
14comment, does he refer to the fact that this conflicts
15with oral orders ----
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think he is saying ----
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- which have been given by a superior agency to him?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, as I interpret it, he is saying the guidelines
19prepared by the local civil administration ----
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is the typed guidelines here?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, no. This is his critique of the typed guidelines.
22The typed guidelines are a different document. This is
23his letter to Jager who is to talk to the people who have
24drawn up the guidelines, and that this is his rejection of
25those guidelines. He says there should not be any
26guidelines until we have discussed this orally,

.   P-154

 1particularly as they touch upon oral orders that from the,
 2you know, that cannot be put in writing.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     All orders from a von hochster Stelle?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, from above.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Not just from above.
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Or from a higher ----
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     A higher plain. Have you ever heard Adolf Hitler referred
 8to as a higher plain in documents?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No, it would be highest.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He would be highest.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Thank you very much. That is the answer I wanted. I know
13it is not very helpful for the Defence, but the correct
14answer is of course it would be von hochster Stelle, would
15it not?
16 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry to intervene, I am not saying this is
17disorderly cross-examination.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is far from being that. I think it is
19extremely orderly.
20 MR RAMPTON:     I agree, but it seems to be heading in what
21I regard as a impermissible direction. On 17th January,
22this is the fourth day of the trial, page 94, the
23cross-examination went like this, line 8: "This is
24evidence that Hitler gave authority" ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you want me to follow, the page?
26 MR RAMPTON:     Day 4, my Lord, page 94. This is why I intervene

.   P-155

 1now, because I expressed a fear this morning that this is
 2what was going to happen.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Page 94.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Page 94, my Lord, lines 7 to 16. I will read it
 5out in case Mr Irving has not got his transcript here.
 6I will start at line 8, if I may: "This is evidence that
 7Hitler gave authority for the massacre at least2.
 8 MR IRVING:     Who is speaking?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You.
10 MR RAMPTON:     I. "This is evidence that Hitler gave authority
11for the massacre at least", interruption by Mr Irving, "of
12Jews". I finish the question because I meant to be
13precise: "Of Jews in the East?" Answer: "Yes".
14Question: "Yes". Then there is something about
15Longerich. Mr Irving says: "I do not think there is any
16dispute between the parties on this".
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am just wanting to see the document that is
18being discussed.
19 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, that may not matter, may it, with
20respect, in the light of what I have just said? Als
21partisan als and auszurotten is what I was asking
22questions about.
23 MR IRVING:     Have we not moved on from that document?
24 MR RAMPTON:     No. With respect, my question was this: "This is
25evidence that Hitler gave authority for the massacre of
26Jews in the East?" "Yes. I do not think there is any

.   P-156

 1dispute between the parties on this."
 2 MR IRVING:     That is absolutely right, but the question is, my
 3Lord, under what title the Jews were being killed, whether
 4they were being killed in this connection as Jews or as
 6 MR RAMPTON:     "The massacre of the Jews in the East? Yes".
 7 MR IRVING:     Yes.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     With Hitler's authority.
 9 MR IRVING:     Both statements are obviously correct. I am very
10sorry you interrupted me at the point where I was making
11this very important point about con hochster Stelle, from
12the highest level.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not worry about that. If Mr Rampton is
14right, and at the movement it appears to me that he may
15well be, you would appear to have conceded quite generally
16that Hitler did indeed give authority for the massacre of
17Jews in the East. That, after all, is what you are
18presently cross-examining Professor Browning about.
19 MR IRVING:     I do hesitate to cavil about words, but whether he
20gave authority for the massacre of Jews or of the Jews is
21what would be the issue here.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not going to hold you to what you said
23in the course of cross-examination, but I think it is
24right to observe that you are, I think, shifting your
25ground because you did appear to concede without any
26qualification that it was Hitler who gave the authority

.   P-157

 1for the massacre of the Jews in the East quite generally.
 2 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I do not have the text in front of me.
 4 MR IRVING:     But from what was read out it appears that it was
 5an exchange rather than a considered statement.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is true.
 7 MR IRVING:     With interruptions and "yes" and "yes".
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not going, as I say, to pin you down by
 9reference to an answer you gave in the course of an
10exchange. So carry on, but I think it is fair to say
11Mr Rampton's intervention was well-founded.
12 MR IRVING:     So I will just have to wind back about 30 seconds,
13so to speak. We were looking at the handwritten footnote
14by Stahlecker. He is referring to orders that have been
15given from a higher level to the Security Police, which
16are being affected by this new draft.
17     My question to you was, can von hochster Stelle
18or from a higher level ever refer to an order from
19Hitler? Your reply was, I think you said it would be from
20the highest level if it was a reference to Hitler?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If he was getting a direct order, this is an order that
22comes from higher authority.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     At which point Mr Rampton decided to interrupt.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, and there was a very good reason for it, if
25I may say so. I do not want to spend a lot of time in
26this court at my clients' expense listening to

.   P-158

 1cross-examination that leads nowhere.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the position, and you can correct me,
 3Mr Irving, if I am wrong about this, is that you have made
 4the concession, and I think that is the right word, that
 5Hitler gave authority for massacre of Jews in the East.
 6That does not prevent you from saying when you are
 7confronted with this document Stahlecker note that as far
 8as this document, Stahlecker's note, that as far as that
 9document goes, that is talking about orders from an
10authority other than Hitler.
11 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it will come as no surprise to you, I am
12sure, to realize by now that it is not going to be easy to
13untangle the thicket of conflicting authorities and
14responsibilities that led to this appalling crime on the
15Eastern Front, and we are not going to find any simple
16chain of command.
18 MR IRVING:     Or any simple written order, and that there will be
19apparent contradictions where people at one area are
20acting in one way and there is someone else acting in
21another way. We have to look for clues as to where
22people's intentions lie.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
24 MR IRVING:     So that is the only use I wish to make of that
25particular document.
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Can I add something to that?

.   P-159

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Sure.
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If we look at Stahlecker's report of October 15, 1941,
 3which is page 23, paragraph 4.3.10, of those four
 4solutions that he lists he clearly embraces the first and
 5claims, and I quote: "It was expected from the start that
 6the Jewish problem would not be solved solely through
 7pogroms. On the other hand, the goal of the Security
 8Police cleansing work according to basic orders was the
 9most complete removal possible of the Jews. Extensive
10executions in the cities and flat lands were therefore
11carried out through special units." In that sense of these
12four we have another document that shows Stahlecker purely
13understood his task as to be the first of those four
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but our problem is and our problem has been for some
16weeks in this courtroom, Professor, to try to establish
17the exact chain of command from the very highest level
18downwards. We are all agreed at the complicity of Himmler
19and Heydrich and Stahlecker and Jaeger and all the others,
20but there is a final bridge that we cannot build yet and
21it is a very difficult bridge to build.
22     I am going to ask you to go back to page 14 now,
23if I may, to paragraph 4.2.4. This is another document
24which I am sure you are very familiar with, August 12th,
251941, the order to drive the Jewish women into the swamps
26apparently issued by Himmler. Driving people into the

.   P-160

 1swamps, is that a familiar kind of phrase at this time?
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I have seen it in three documents. This is the first one
 3and then there is the Hitler table talk, and then there is
 4the citation by Jackelm saying that Himmler used the
 5phrase with him after the early December meetings. So
 6I have come across that phrase now three times in this
 7stretch of five or six months.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it just a turn of phrase or do they mean it literally,
 9do you think?
10 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, I think the indication here ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it a dangerous turn of phrase?
12 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It is used in ways I think that have a very, to use your
13term, a lethal connotation, that it seems to have become
14one of the slang words for making sure that Jews die. In
15the first one we see clearly by the response that driving
16Jews in the swamps meant that they were supposed to drown,
17because the man replies back: "Driving women and children
18into the swamps did not have the intended success because
19the swamps were not so deep that a sinking under could
20occur". So at least to the recipient it was clear that
21driving Jews into the swamps was a way in which they would
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is the Magill document?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is the Magill document.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Footnote No. 40.
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.

.   P-161

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     That document, of course, comes from a different archive,
 2does it not, somewhere in Czechoslovakia?
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That I believe is the Prague military archive.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Prague military archive?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you have that document in front of you, please? It is
 7footnote 40.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 23.
 9 MR IRVING:     Page 23. It is only a minor point I am going to
10make on that. In the second paragraph of that it is
11evident that the local Ukrainian and white Russian
12population were helping the Nazi invaders by telling them
13where the partisans were hiding. Is that correct?
14Reporting that there was bandits around and helping them
15to find them so that they could be shot?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this was partisan country?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, of course they use the term Banden and it may or may
19not mean a real partisan unit at this stage of the war.
20It most likely means strengthening Russian soldiers that
21are, as they say, room driven, they are wandering around
22the swamp because they have been cut off.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     What period does this report cover?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     This is early August 1941.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     How many days?
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Well, that would be less than two months into Barbarossa.

.   P-162

 1Oh, I am sorry, it covers July 27th to 11th August 1941.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Two weeks then, is it not? How big was this
 3reitenabteilung, a mounted, what, brigade, mounted
 4detachment literally?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     How many men?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I believe this is one regiment within the brigade.
 8I think there were two cavalry regiments and this is the
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, it says that it is the mounted ----
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Mounted police of the cavalry regiment two, you are
12right. So this is a group, yes, a mounted group.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is a brigade.
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     What the size of an abteilung is. I do not know.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     It varies, does it not, from unit to unit?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you turn to the final page, please, page 4, the
18third paragraph from the end. Does it give a figure there
19for the gesamtzahl, the overall total?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It says 6,526 of plunderers.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Plunderers have been shot by this unit?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     In that two-week period. Do you consider that to be a
24plausible figure for a relatively small unit? I am just
26 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.

.   P-163

 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Still on paragraph 4.2.5 ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before we leave that document, which is four
 3pages of rather dense German text, is there anywhere,
 4presumably there is somewhere, a reference to all Jews
 5being shot, sorry, the intended result or the intended
 6success not having been achieved?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     The top of the last page, my Lord.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The top of the last page.
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is the non-success.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Failure.
11 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. Was your question, is there another document that
12says what happened?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. I expressed it rather badly. I have
14been told that there was somewhere in this document a
15passage which says, "We did not have the success we had
16hoped with driving the women into the swamp", and
17Mr Rampton has identified it. It is the top of page 26 of
18this clip. Yes. Thank you.
19 MR IRVING:     Which does appear to be a direct response to the
20telegram, does it not, the order?
21 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     A remarkable -- it does not often happen in the archives,
23does it, two archives?
24 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That you will have a meeting of documents from two
25different archives, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you would now go back to 4.2.5, please, the only reason

.   P-164

 1to look at this is because on line 5 of that paragraph you
 2mention the higher SS and police leader von dem
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Von dem Bach-Zelewski. He was one of the major war
 6criminals, am I right?
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He is the counterpart of Jackelm in the North,
 8Bach-Zelewski in the middle, and he was certainly
 9considered by many to be a war criminal.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     How many scalps did he have, do you think, by the time the
11war ended, tens of thousands on his belt? I mean how many
12lives did he have on his conscious, that man, when the war
13ended as a mass murderer?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     My guess is that it was quite a few.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Quite few tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands?
16 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     What happened to him after the war? Was he executed?
18 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. He was tried in a court in Munich and as I ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     When?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In the 1960s I believe.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the 1960s? So he survived 15 years in relative comfort
22being used in any way by the Allies as a witness?
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He appeared as a witness I believe in the Wolff trial.
24I do not know what other trials he may have appeared as a
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this not an extraordinary state of affairs, in your

.   P-165

 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It would not be the first miscarriage of justice in
 3Germany in which people should have been tried and were
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is, in my view, or would you agree, a particular
 6egregious example of somebody who should have been hanged
 7relatively early on who somehow escaped the hangman's
 8noose, would you agree?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think he certainly should have been brought to trial
10much earlier, and his verdict should have been much more
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     He made a number of witness statements on behalf of the
13Americans and the British and the other Allies after the
14war, did he?
15 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am not sure on that. I could not answer that.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, you say he testified at Nuremberg?
17 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He testified at the Karl Wolff trial and also in Bavaria.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     How much credence do you think you could attach to the
19evidence of a witness like that?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     It would depend upon looking at what he was saying and in
21what context and what corroboration. I would not make a
22blanket statement. Here again it would be a case where
23there is a witness and you would want to look very
24carefully at the particular testimony in question, but
25this would be one to be approached with caution. He did
26send apparently his doctored and sanitized diary to the

.   P-166

 1Bundesarchiv all nicely typed up and all references to
 2things that you have referred to, that he probably has
 3many hundreds of thousands on his conscious nicely
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does this kind of happen in the archives, that documents
 6turn up in the archives that have been sanitized in some
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     If they are submitted by the private party himself, as in
 9this case, I suppose it is not necessarily uncommon.
10I think there was a feeling that maybe Sper had done the
11same thing.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     I know Sper did the same thing. Would you not agree that
13in a case of a man like Bach-Zelewski who you know and
14I know and the world knew was a mass murderer who had
15somehow managed to survive like Scheherezade by singing or
16by telling tales, that is the kind of evidence that you
17should drive a very wide circle around and not under any
18circumstances use?
19 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I would not say not to use under any circumstances. It
20would depend upon what he was saying and whether it had
21other kinds of corroboration. He might be saying
22something that other witnesses would confirm.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     I mention this just as a particularly gross example,
24because are there any other names that would occur to you
25of witnesses where you think, well, it is funny that he
26got off so lightly? Are there any other names in

.   P-167

 1connection with the Holocaust where witnesses have
 2been ----
 3 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I think Wolff got off fairly lightly.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Karl Wolff?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Because he was an accomplice or he was -- what would his
 7particular crime have been, to your knowledge?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Certainly in facilitating of the procuring of trains for
 9Operation Reinhard, that was one key document.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. He survived, but are you familiar that in the case
11of Karl Wolff -- no, I cannot lead evidence on that
12obviously. What about Wilheim Hoertel, Eichmann's liaison
13in the Balkans, shall we say?
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am not aware that Hoertel was involved in the
15deportation the way Sedonika or someone else. I do not
16know of any situation in which Hoertel knew Eichmann, but
17I do not believe he worked for him or was instrumental in
18the Final Solution.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     I will put to you to two facts in connection with
20Hoertel. Is he one of the sources for our overall figure
21of the total on the Holocaust, the total number of
23 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He is the person who gave such a figure. I do not think
24that that is why historians come to the numbers that they
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Where did he get his figure from?

.   P-168

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     He claimed he got it from Eichmann.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     He claimed he got it from Eichmann. Was Hoertel
 3prosecuted at all in any way at the end of the war for his
 4role as a member of the Gestapo?
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I do not know, but I have certainly not come across him as
 6having been involved in the Final Solution. But there are
 7many people ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did he give evidence in Nuremberg on behalf of the Allies?
 9 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That again I cannot say.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you go to page 16 of your report, please, paragraph
114.2.8? Can we have a look at the source document for that
12one, please?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it page 78?
14 MR IRVING:     I beg your pardon?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure it is, but it might be.
16 MR IRVING:     Yes. Your Lordship is way ahead of us. Would you
17go to page 2 of that transcript which again is
18unfortunately in German, but I wanted to draw your
19attention to the bottom three lines. Am I right in saying
20it says that two categories of Jews are to be
21distinguished from each other?
22 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes. This is a document I believe that relates to Minsk
23and the other heading a Russian Jewish ghetto and a German
24Jewish ghetto, that they had a very strict separation in
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and that these Jews, the Nazis had to distinguish

.   P-169

 1between these two categories of Jews ----
 2 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In this case ----
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- once they began the killings when the ground thawed?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am not sure if I understand the question.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, the question is that they made once again a
 6distinction between killing Russian Jews and the treatment
 7of German Jews at this Minsk conference?
 8 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They made a distinction between them, but they are
 9virtually all killed within six months. So it is a
10distinction that delayed the executions not a very great
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the point of the distinction in that
14 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     They are kept in different ghettoes at the moment is one
15thing, and I believe, as you see from document, I think
16they consider the work skills of the German Jews would be
17viewed as higher and therefore would be kept longer. It
18goes on to say that Russian Jews, the following paragraph,
19after separation, it says: "Russian Jews are of a stubborn
20nature and unwilling to work. The German Jews work with
21much more vigour and they believe after victory that they
22will return to the old Reich". This is the result of
23having sent these people with in the fall with all of
24their Gerat, their utensils and suitcases and whatever
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You quote in your report a passage about a complete

.   P-170

 1liquidation of the Jews not possible to due to the frost.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     It is the bottom of page 2, my Lord, above the
 3little letters (a) and (b).
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see.
 5 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Yes, the quote I made ends, and then they say there are
 6two categories to distinguish German and Russian, and then
 7they explain that the German Jews are much better workers
 8than the Russian Jews, and that is a reason why there
 9would be differentiated treatment.
10 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, again this may be a document which it
11would repay having rather more translated of.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think in view of the point Mr Irving has
13just made, that would probably be right.
14 MR RAMPTON:     I think that must be right.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
16 MR IRVING:     We now come to a rather sensitive area which your
17Lordship may feel is not relevant, and this is the
18question to what extent did the local population
19participate in or even instigate the killings of Jews on
20the Eastern Front, the Russian front and in the Baltic
21countries, and to what extent were they themselves
22murderers? In other words, what percentage of the
23killings were their responsibility and what percentage
24went on to the Nazis?
25 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That is the question you would like my affirmation on?
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

.   P-171

 1 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     In terms of the pogroms that is something that was a brief
 2phenomenon in the very opening days of the war, sometimes
 3instigated by the Germans, sometimes starting
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are we talking about the Eastern Front or the Baltic
 7 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     Both. Baltic countries is part I would say of the Eastern
 8Front. More success, I guess more pogroms in some parts
 9of the Ukraine and Lithuania than -- here I do not know
10the detail of where the pogroms occurred, but clearly they
11were supported and instigated by the Germans. How many
12were spontaneous would take a research that I have not
13gone into. What is more important is that by late July
14Himmler has approved the formation of auxiliary police
15units, that these police units reach about 30,000 by the
16end of 1941, about 300,000 by the end of 1942, and
17comprise one of the major manpower sources for why a small
18number of Einsatzgruppen ----
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     And they were not all engaged killing though, were they?
20 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     No. Many are in police stations, but they are at one
21point when it comes the day to kill the Jews in that
22region, often it is the local police that would be part of
23the liquidation process. They do not move about. Some
24do. There are two concepts: The ones kept in police
25stations and then there are the mobile battalions.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I introduce the concept of the interregnum between the

.   P-172

 1time that the Soviet troops pulled out of the Baltic
 2countries and the Nazi troops arrive, a period of, say,
 3one or two weeks?
 4 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     I am not sure that it was that long in many places.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was there much killing went on in that time?
 6 A. [Professor Christopher Robert Browning]     That would have represented an infinitesimal fraction of
 7the total number of Soviet Jews killed.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are not familiar with the private diary Otto
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, before you go further, is this
11your best point? If there really were 300,000 of these
12people, Nazi ----
13 MR IRVING:     Auxiliaries.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- auxiliaries, how far are you going to get
15with the idea that it was the local population that was
16either participating or instigating.
17 MR IRVING:     I appreciate your objection, my Lord. I will not
18press that matter any further.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Press on if you want, but it seems me it is
20not perhaps a particularly good point.
21 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I have come to the end of my preparations
22for today's cross-examination. With respect, I would ask
23that, unless Mr Rampton has any further points to make, we
24will adjourn now.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I told you I will give you as much latitude
26as you reasonably want. You have gone quite

.   P-173

 1expeditiously. So, Mr Rampton, you do not object to
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I am absolutely relaxed about that. I would like
 4to know because I have to get Professor Evans ready,
 5whether we will finish with Professor Browning tomorrow.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Sensible timetabling.
 7 MR IRVING:     I think we will finish with Professor Browning
 9 MR RAMPTON:     In that case, I will prepare to have Professor
10Evans here for Thursday.
11 MR IRVING:     I might want possibly one or two hours more on
12Thursday, but it is certainly not to inconvenience
13Professor Evans.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     One or two more hours more on Thursday with
15Professor Browning?
16 MR IRVING:     If I have not quite finished with him by then.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am just wondering whether he is not wanting
18to go off somewhere else.
19 MR RAMPTON:     He wants to go back home to America. So if he is
20not finished tomorrow, which is Tuesday, I would ask that
21he could be finished on Wednesday morning.
22 MR IRVING:     I was thinking Wednesday morning, yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What we will do, Mr Irving, is we will carry
24on on Wednesday. Do not worry, you will get your day, but
25it may be a split day, if you follow me, a day's time for
26preparing Evans.

.   P-174

 1 MR IRVING:     It makes sense for me to prepare properly the way I
 2have for today.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course. In the end it saves time which is
 4why I think it is perfectly sensible.
 5 MR IRVING:     Unless Mr Rampton wishes to cross-examine him now
 6on some of the points I have made.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Re-examine.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     No, I would not dream of cross-examining, even if
 9I were allowed to.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I would let you, but I do not think it
11is actually sensible.
12 MR RAMPTON:     There is one little problem about Professor
13Evans. It probably does not matter enormously because
14I can use Friday with remaining cross-examination of
15Mr Irving. Professor Evans has rearranged everything
16because he thought we were not sitting on Friday. So he
17has, as it were, pushed everything into that one day. So
18even if he was started on Thursday I would ask him to be
19released for the Friday. Friday will not be wasted.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, do you have a view about that?
21 MR IRVING:     No, my Lord. I am in your Lordship's hands. I am
22much more relaxed than I was last week.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The overall progress has actually been quite
25 MR RAMPTON:     Very good. My hope is that we are actually going
26to save about a month of the estimate, which means we

.   P-175

 1might get a little time off to write our closing speeches.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That may have been partly to due to a bit of
 3prereading. It did save a bit of time. Then we will have
 4Evans on Thursday and resume him on Monday.
 5 MR IRVING:     My Lord, you must not forget that I have one more
 6witness to call and that is Dr John Fox.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You tell me when it is convenient for you to
 8call him.
 9 MR IRVING:     I will arrange with the Defence on a date for that.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, discuss it together. 10.30 tomorrow.
11 < (The witness stood down).
12(The court adjourned until the following day)

.   P-176


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