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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 13: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Tuesday, 1st February 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry Counsell &Company)
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY THIRTEEN
1 <Day 13Tuesday, 1st February 2000.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving?
3 MR IRVING: May it please the court. Your Lordship will have
4appreciated that the Defence relied to a certain degree on
5that document about crematorium capacities.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
7 MR IRVING: I was going to ask your Lordship's leave to have
8Professor van Pelt back in the box for 10 minutes to put
9further points about it to him which he may not be able to
10answer, but which would give the chance then for their
11other experts later on in the procedure to come back and
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think your position on that document was
14that you doubted its authenticity. Is that fair?
15 MR IRVING: This is, I think, the only document whose integrity
16I am challenging.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I do not think it is the only one but it is
18certainly one that you are challenging.
19 MR IRVING: It is a very important document. I did not
20appreciate at the time that we went over it the degree to
21which Professor van Pelt was going to rely on it. You
22remember the diagram he drew with the tall green column,
23and so on?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Subject to what Mr Rampton says, as Professor
25van Pelt is here, I do not see any reason why he should
26not be further cross-examined, do you?
1 MR RAMPTON: No, I do not mind at all, provided he does not.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am not sure he has a choice.
3 MR RAMPTON: He has not got any of his papers and I do not have
4the document here myself.
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am sure he will manage. Let us have him
6back, shall we, now? Professor, would you mind coming
8 < PROFESSOR VAN PELT, recalled.
9< Further Cross-Examined by MR IRVING.
10 MR IRVING: It is in the Auschwitz core file No. 2. I have
11provided a set of documents to the Defence to operate
12with. It is under tab 4, item 49.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I have it. What about these odds and
14ends, Mr Irving? Where are you suggesting we put them?
15 MR IRVING: If we come to Dresden during the day, my Lord.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: These are Dresden, are they?
17 MR IRVING: They are Dresden, my Lord.
18 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] This is Kristallnacht, so this is my own report.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can he have a copy of K2?
20 MR IRVING: This is the actual document. The first thing is
21that Jean-Claude Pressac on page 247 himself points to the
22fact that this document did not surface until 1981. Would
23you agree with that, Professor?
24 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] No, I do not agree, because it was available in the Vienna
25trial. The first copy I found was in the Vienna trial.
26What I actually had in my hand was, I think, in file OM
1461 at the Dejaco and Ertl trial.
2 Q. [Mr Irving] When was that trial?
3 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] That trial was in 1971.
4 Q. [Mr Irving] Are you aware of any earlier occasions when that document
5surfaced, shall we say?
6 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I think that Jan Sehn had it his hands in the early 50s,
7but I cannot be sure about that. When I talked about the
8Domberg version of the document -- there is a version of
9that document, as far as I know, in the Hoess trial
10transcript, and that would have been there in '48. I am
11not yet absolutely sure any more that I have seen that
12document in the Hoess trial transcript. I went through
13the Hoess trial transcripts. This was in 1990, but I am
14not absolutely any more sure that I have seen the Domburg
15copy in that transcript. I thought it was brought up -- I
16have certainly seen the Domburg copy. A copy was
17elsewhere in the Auschwitz und Bauleitung files.
18 Q. [Mr Irving] These would be useful pointers to the defence to research
19the document over the next few days.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Sorry, Professor van Pelt, you referred to
21the Domburg document. I do not know what you mean by
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] There is an archive in the DDR, in Domburg. They sent at
24a certain moment a copy of that document to the State
26 MR IRVING: Would that be in 1959 that that transfer took
2 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I am not sure. If indeed it is in the Hoess trial
3transcript it should have happened earlier because Hoess
4was in 1947, and then, of course, the other camp SS men
5were tried in 1948, and some of these files of the Hoess
6trial and that of Grapner and the others are
7actually combined, so it is kind of difficult to determine
8exactly what comes from where.
9 Q. [Mr Irving] The operative word in that response is the word "if" of
10course, "if it was in the trial". Is it right that the
11document as published, or a version of the document as
12published, in a 1957 volume published by the East German,
13the DDR, the German Democrat Republic?
14 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I am not sure. I wonder, do you remember -- do you mean
15the Petsalt book?
16 Q. [Mr Irving] I do not know the title of the book.
17 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] I cannot comment on that. I am not absolutely sure,
18I think that Petsalt did it, but I thought the Petsalt
19book was later.
20 Q. [Mr Irving] Can I now draw your attention to the document in front of
21you which is in facsimile? This is taken from the Defence
22bundle, the Auschwitz core file No. 2.
23 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving] This is an original document, is it not? It is not a
25postwar transcript, to the best of your knowledge?
26 A. [Professor Robert Jan van Pelt]
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