Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

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    We can be quite open about it. Once this
 1Right. Professor McDonald? I am bound to say, having
 2read his report, I am not clear to what issues a lot of it
 3goes, but perhaps you can ----
 4 MR IRVING:     Will I be allowed to examine him briefly to start
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you should because that may ----
 7 MR IRVING:     Help to bring out some of the issues on which we
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- reveal to me what is not at present
10clear, namely how his evidence is really relevant to the
11issues I have to decide.
12 MR IRVING:     I appreciate that, your Lordship, and your Lordship
13will have noticed possibly that there is a bundle there
14which has freshly grown on your desk called bundle E,
15which I am not asking your Lordship, of course, to look at
16today. I am only going to rely on one document in it or
17two documents, in fact, including the covering letter as
18far as today is concerned. It is a document from the
19Defendants' own discovery, so I am not actually springing
20it on them. This is a bundle of documents which,
21I suggest, shows that I have been the victim of an
22international endeavour to destroy my legitimacy as an
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, yes, but remember- ----
25 MR IRVING:     Of which the Second Defendant has made herself a

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Remember the Defendant is Professor Lipstadt
 2and, therefore, it is her activities or activities for
 3which she can be held accountable which may have some
 5 MR IRVING:     Yes, but if she has made herself part of a broader
 6endeavour, then that goes to my claim that this is an
 7aggravated libel, I would submit, and ----
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let us see how the evidence turns out.
 9 MR IRVING:     --- let us see how we get along, my Lord, shall we?
10Professor MacDonald.
12< Examined by MR IRVING.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor McDonald, if you want to sit down,
14please feel free to do so.
15 MR IRVING:     Professor McDonald, I must ask you to speak up and
16also slowly because of the burden placed on the
17transcribers and also the difficulties with the language,
18of course. You are Professor Kevin McDonald?
19 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are Professor of Psychology at California State
22 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     And you have a Doctorate in Biobehavioural Sciences from
24University of Connecticut?
25 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are the author of six books?

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 1 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     That is correct.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you describe in very brief terms to the court the
 3three major books which you have published, beginning with
 4"A people that shall dwell alone", just in two or three
 5lines setting out ----
 6 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Right. My background is a evolutionary biology, and
 7beginning in the early 1990s I started writing what turned
 8out to be three books on Judaism from an evolutionary
 9perspective. The first book was "A People that shall
10dwell alone", Judaism as an evolutionary, a group
11evolutionary strategy, just basically describing Judaism
12from the standpoint of my evolutionary biology, including
13the ideology of Judaism, the segregation of the Jewish
14gene pool from surrounding peoples, resource competition
15between groups, and so on, co-operation within the group
16and so on.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can you describe that roughly then as the relationship
18between the Jewish community as a whole and the rest of
19the world?
20 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes, but it was focused mainly on describing Judaism and
21its relationship, yes, with...
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was that book well received in academic circles? Has it
23been generally accepted almost as a standard work?
24 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes, it has had good reviews within evolutionary, you
25know, periodicals, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are also a member of the executive board of the Human

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 1Behaviour and Evolution Society?
 2 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     That is correct.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     And your second book was "Separation and its
 4Discontents". Would you again in two or three lines just
 5describe what the content of that book is and its thrust?
 6 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     "Separation and its Discontents" focused anti-Semitism
 7from the evolutionary respect and from the perspective of
 8social psychology, in other words, trying to develop an
 9understanding of anti-Semitism within the purview, you
10might say, of modern and social science, and so it is
11focused on anti-Semitism but also on the tactics that
12Jewish organisations use to combat anti-Semitism.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     What kinds of tactics are you referring to when you say
15 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Well, in the chapter where I described the tactics the
16Jewish organizations have used, I, in fact, mentioned the
17St Martin's Press rescinding a publication of the
18Goebbels' Diary which is why Mr Irving contacted me.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So in that particular book you actually refer to the
20manner in which a New York publisher suppressed a book
21under pressure from the Jewish community?
22 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes, from the Anti-defamation League, yes.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I think that can only be relevant,
24surely, if it can be established that the Defendants were
25in some way involved in St Martin's Press cancelling that

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 1 MR IRVING:     In that case I would draw you attention then when
 2the time comes to a third document here, my Lord, which is
 3the Washington Post on the morning before St Martin's
 4Press took its decision and they quoted the Second
 5Defendant as an authority for their decision.
 6     Your Lordship may consider it to be tenuous or
 7you may consider it to be relevant.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I do not consider it to be tenuous.
 9I just wonder how this witness can help on this.
10 MR IRVING:     Well, setting it in its broader context, as saying
11this is not just a misfortune that has befallen me, but is
12part of a group strategy, my Lord, and difficult though it
13is to establish, I will do what I can for the next five or
1410 minutes and then turn him to whatever cross-examination
15Mr Rampton desires to make.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But I understand the way you put it. Thank
18 MR IRVING:     So you perceived the Jewish community as working in
19a certain way in order to suppress a certain book?
20 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Well, there were several tactics the Jewish organizations
23have used. That was another one.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. You have had a chance to read most of this bundle,
25which is identified by me as bundle E ----
26 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes, I have.

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