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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 12: Electronic Edition

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- over the weekend, is that correct?
 2 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes, I have.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Could you, again in just a very few lines, describe how
 4the documents you have read in that bundle support or
 5refute your own -- I have to ask what these papers are
 6that you are looking at.
 7 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     This is simply a statement that I wrote out.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     I think we will have to ask you to testify really from
 9within yourself rather than from the written paper.
10 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes. I was not aware of that.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Having read the bundle of documents, would you
12describe roughly what the bundle of documents comprises?
13 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Well, the bundle of documents comprises a record of
14suppression of David Irving, cancelling of speeches,
15avoiding of contracts, as a result of pressure of various
16Jewish organizations in different countries.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Just from one country or from several countries?
18 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     From several countries -- Canada, South Africa, Australia,
19I believe.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     You would put the suppression of that book within that
22 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes. If I had known about that actually, I would have
23explained in that section, including more examples of
24that, showing some examples of that.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen items in this bundle which lead you to
26believe that the Second Defendant has made herself a part

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 1of that endeavour?
 2 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes, I have. There was an article in the Washington Post
 3quoting her -- I do not have the exact quote here. I can
 4read it.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you are going to rely on it in some way,
 6perhaps you could tell me what it says?
 7 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes.
 8 MR IRVING:     It is ----
 9 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     OK. In the Washington Post of April 3, 1996, she is
10quoted as saying: "In the past ... it says that in every
11generation there shall be those who rise up to destroy
12us. David Irving is not physically destroying us, but is
13trying to destroy the memory of those who have already
14perished at the hands of tyrants. They say that they do
15not publish reputations, they publish books, but would
16they publish a book by Jeffery Damer on man, boy
17relationships? Of course, the reputation of the author
18counts and no legitimate historian takes David Irving's
19work seriously". It is that last part that certainly drew
20my attention because I have seen historians praise his
21work, but also just the fact that she was literally part
22of the pressure on St Martin's Press.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Can I ask you to go to page 250 of the bundle?
24 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     I do not have a copy here.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     I will give you a copy. This is bundle E, if you go to
26page 250 of bundle E?

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 1 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is that a letter from the Simon Wiesenthal Centre to the
 3Second Defendant, Mrs Deborah Lipstadt?
 4 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes, it is on the head of Simon Wiesenthal, signed by Saul
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does it make reference to a student paper I sent to you?
 7 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Does Mr Litman who wrote the letter conclude the letter
 9saying, "Please recognize that it is not for publication
10or direct quotation. It is, after all, an unedited
11student's work and contains many phrases and comments that
12neither you or I would use in a situation which clearly
13involves considerable delicacy"?
14 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes, that is a direct quote.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you now turn to page 251?
16 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this, apparently, an anonymous report of
18approximately ----
19 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     25 pages.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- 12 pages or thereabouts called, "History Rewritten,
21the World of David Irving"?
22 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you seen anything in that report which indicates that
24there has been a deliberate attempt made by an
25organization to destroy my legitimacy as an historian?
26 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Well, yes, on page 253 ----

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What do you say this document is that you are
 2looking at, Professor McDonald?
 3 MR IRVING:     It was a document that was provided to the Second
 4Defendant by the Simon Wiesenthal Centre, my Lord.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is the one referred to in the letter you
 6have just taken us to?
 7 MR IRVING:     We have to presume so, my Lord. It took a certain
 8amount of fight to obtain a copy of this for the
 9solicitors. I had to obtain court order finally to
10obtain a copy of it.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see.
12 MR IRVING:     They provides what looks like the covering letter
13in a separate episode and gave it the same discovery
14number, No. 500. But all I propose to do is to rely on
15the content of this document which went to the Second
16Defendant, and you have drawn our attention to page 253,
17and which paragraph do you consider is suggestive of an
18attempt to destroy my legitimacy as an historian?
19 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     In the first full paragraph, is still in the introduction,
20it refers to quotes later on from you, but then it says in
21the middle of that paragraph: "These quotes serve as a
22clear example of why he should not be allowed to
23disseminate his message of hate as freely in other public
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which paragraph is that again?
26 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     The first full paragraph on page 253.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Beginning with the words "The focus of"?
 2 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     "These quotes serve as a clear example of why he should
 4not be allowed to disseminate his message of hate as
 5freely in other public forums"?
 6 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     That is quite correct, and further ----
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     At the bottom of that page, can I draw your attention to
 8the sentence beginning, "The importance of" ----
 9 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- "such work is to deny Irving the legitimacy he so
11desires in his attempts to spread his anti-Semitic and
12racist messages", and are there any other passages in that
13which indicate an organized attempt to destroy my
15 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     Yes, just a minute here. It probably bears mentioning on
16page 256 that, although the author of this report does
17view David Irving as a flawed historian, it is
18acknowledged that his revisionist themes are interspersed
19with genuine historical insight. Again, that is, sort of,
20what exercises me, but at the bottom of page 258, the last
21paragraph on page 258.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would you read it out, please?
23 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     The entire paragraph?
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 A. [Professor Kevin McDonald]     "David Irving's techniques challenge the most educated
26minds to adopt his version of reality. By revealing

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