ایروینگ در مقابل لیپستادت

    Auschwitz is more nearly a part of the narrative
 1that I am launched on now, chronologically speaking, than
 2for example Reichskristallnacht, which is 1938. I had in
 3mind to lead up to Auschwitz by the questions I shall ask
 4about other matters arising from the Evans report and
 5Browning and Longerich. So Auschwitz would fit neatly in
 6at the end of my cross-examination this week as part of
 7the historical narrative.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I think this is quite helpful to
 9debate this through. I had really understood the point
10you are on at the moment to be part of your case for
11saying that Hitler knew, if that is what it all goes to,
12and kristallnacht goes to that, so indeed did the events
13of 1924.
14 MR RAMPTON:     This is all to do to with system -- two things,
15how systematic were the shootings and the gassings --
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How high up did the instruction come from.
17 MR RAMPTON:     How high up did it go. Embedded in that all are
18very specific criticisms about the way in which Mr Irving
19deals with the material.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course, because that is an aspect of ----
21 MR RAMPTON:     The libel.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- your case in relation to whether Hitler
23knew.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Of course.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving has not taken account of all the
26material.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     That is right.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But, looking at it from my point of view,
 3I would find it helpful to go through all of that in one
 4bite, as it were, and to treat Auschwitz separately. If
 5that is not practical, well, then we will have to live
 6with it.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I will find out, obviously, in the light of what
 8your Lordship said, whether it is practical, but I have to
 9say I think at this stage it is going to be very
10difficult. I know, that Professor van Pelt has a
11significant or substantial academic appointment to fulfil
12in, I think, March, is it March -- yes.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is a fair way off.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I know.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have to keep an eye on this not running
16out of control.
17 MR RAMPTON:     I quite agree. We have allocated three months,
18give or take maybe a week or two. I am very anxious, from
19my clients' point of view, we keep to that schedule if we
20possibly can.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Of course.
22 MR RAMPTON:     One of the key elements in all this is I do not
23know what Mr Irving's position on Auschwitz is.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That may emerge if we have the debate about
25how much evidence is really relevant on Auschwitz.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I have two -- I make it perfectly clear,

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 1I have always done -- main lines of attack so far as
 2Mr Irving and Auschwitz are concerned, which all really
 3amount to the same thing; either he leapt on the Leuchter
 4bandwagon without having bothered to think about it, which
 5is very good evidence of his poor quality as an historian,
 6or else he did think about it and his position is every
 7bit as bad. So for that reason the detail may or may not
 8be relevant, but since I do not know what his position
 9is ...
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Again, I do not want to get into it too much,
11but one of the points you make is that there is a lot of
12evidence, eyewitness evidence, and the like, which, as
13I understand your case, you contend Mr Irving has not
14given proper or, perhaps, indeed, any weight to. How does
15that k-- I mean, that must be part of the case still, must
16it not?
17 MR RAMPTON:     Of course it is. I could cross-examine Mr Irving
18for a month about Auschwitz if he will not concede a
19single point about the convergent evidence which, as a
20matter of probability, would satisfy the historian that it
21happened.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Well, you have put a few markers
23down. Mr Irving, I think it is helpful just to see the
24way the wind is blowing. Shall we try to deal with your
25witnesses?
26 MR IRVING:     I will reserve my position on Auschwitz. I have

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 1very powerful material which supports my position. The
 2second point, I am just asking your Lordship to utter a
 3verbal "tut tut" to the Defence as they keep on trickling
 4material at me.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. You refer to Professor Evans having
 6submitted a closely typed 18 page list of amendments.
 7 MR IRVING:     To his already very detailed report.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not totally sure that has reached me,
 9but may I wrong about that.
10 MR IRVING:     It is about 5,000 or 8,000 words, I estimate very
11detailed, probably about 200 separate points.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have, if I may say so, a lot of sympathy
13with that ----
14 MR IRVING:     The accuracy with which he is working, on the other
15hand, it inflicts an added burden on us.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see that. I am conscious of the heavy
17burden you are bearing. I am well aware of that.
18 MR IRVING:     My Lord.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have I actually got that, Mr Rampton?
20 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know, my Lord.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The addendum.
22 MR RAMPTON:     If not, I can only apologise on all our behalves;
23you certainly should have done.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     At some stage I am, presumably, going to have
25to absorb it. I have noted, Mr Irving --
26 MR IRVING:     The third point, my Lord. I have suggested a

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 1proposed timetable for witnesses.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before we get to that, could I go back to
 3your point (1)? I am a little concerned you feel part of
 4your case has gone by the board.
 5 MR IRVING:     Indeed, my Lord. If your Lordship would indicate
 6how and in what manner I would be able to introduce the
 7evidence I propose to lead?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought about that. Your main concern is
 9you are obviously getting it into my head.
10 MR IRVING:     Getting it before your Lordship.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Quite. Well, if I may say so, I think you
12have produced enough in writing and, indeed, to some
13extent in your opening, in your short evidence-in-chief,
14in regard to your reputation. I do not think you need be
15concerned about that. That certainly has not gone by the
16board, as far as I am concerned. As far as the attempt to
17destroy your legitimacy as an historian, I know what your
18case is, but I think I have to remind you that this is
19actually an action on Professor Lipstadt' book, so --
20 MR IRVING:     I anticipated your Lordship would say that, but in
21view of the fact that the sources on which that book draws
22have been part and parcel of this campaign to destroy my
23legitimacy, as I would have attempted to establish in the
24evidence that I would have proposed to lead, in that
25respect I consider it to be relevant to this case.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     

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