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Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 4: Electronic Edition
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1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
2Royal Courts of Justice
4 Monday, 17th January 2000
7MR JUSTICE GRAY
9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell & Company,
Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
23 PROCEEDINGS - DAY FOUR
1 < DAY 4 Monday, 17th January 2000
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, Mr Irving?
3 MR IRVING: May it please your Lordship.
4 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think this court is better. I know a lot
5of work has been put into moving everything and I am very
6grateful for those who did it.
7 MR IRVING: I am indebted to the solicitors in this action. An
8added burden falls upon them, my being a litigant in
10 May it please the court, I have addressed a
11letter to the court suggesting that we spend some ten
12minutes this morning dealing with some minor matters that
13have come up, and also I wanted to propose that your
14Lordship should appoint a date when we might have a formal
15argument, lasting perhaps one half hour for each party, on
16this important question of what is relevant and what is
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Are you talking about Auschwitz now?
19 MR IRVING: About Auschwitz, my Lord, yes.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I did not realize there was a dispute between
21you as to what is or is not relevant in the Defendants'
22evidence for that matter.
23 MR IRVING: Your Lordship will remember on the very first day
24in my opening remarks I did draw your attention to the
25fact in my view what happened 50 years ago was less
26important than what happened within the four walls of my
1study, as I put it.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That point I fully understood, but I am not
3sure that knocks out the much of the Defendants' evidence,
4but we do not, I think, want to get into that today.
5 MR IRVING: I do not want to get into argument today, but
6I wonder whether we possibly ought to steer toward having
7a discussion about it, so we can clarify our minds about
8the relevance of this. I have seen that the Defendants
9have made remarks to various foreign newspapers about the
10Auschwitz lie or about Auschwitz and such. It is not. It
11is about specific libels as set out in the Statement of
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: In this court we are all agreed about that,
14but, yes, do raise that whenever is a convenient moment;
15I suspect now is not.
16 MR IRVING: Now is not the right moment.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Because we are on another topic. You are in
18the middle of your evidence.
19 MR IRVING: I suspect we will have to prepare ourselves for
20it. But if you were to limit it to say half an hour each
21side maximum. I will try to persuade your Lordship to
22limit the ambit of the evidence and the argument and the
23hearing itself which would have a pleasing effect on the
24length of the trial, but, on the other hand, I am sure
25that the Defendants would wish to argue in the other
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, perhaps the first thing between you and
2Mr Rampton is to try to agree a time when it might be
3convenient to raise this issue.
4 MR RAMPTON: My Lord, can I perhaps intervene at this stage?
5 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
6 MR RAMPTON: As matters presently stand, I see that I have just
7been handed something from Mr Irving -- I expect your
8Lordship has it too -- containing some sort of a proposed
9timetable for his witnesses ----
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
11 MR RAMPTON: --- about which I have no comment to make except
12this, that Professor van Pelt, as Mr Irving knows and has
13known for some time, is arriving in this country at the
14end of this week with a view to his giving evidence at the
15beginning of next -- no, sorry not giving evidence being
16in court while I cross-examine Mr Irving about Auschwitz.
17It follows from that -- perhaps, two things follow; one
18that that cross-examination will be discontinuous, that is
19intermediate because of these other people that are
20coming. I am not going to stand in their way if it is
21inconvenient for them. I have few, if any, questions to
22ask them anyway, I suspect. But it does mean that before
23I start my cross-examination on Auschwitz, if there is a
24ruling to be made, it would need to be made before the
25beginning of next week, preferably before Professor van
26Pelt steps on an aeroplane to come to Europe.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. We have proceeded on the basis that we
2are having two separate issues or two separate chunks of
3evidence; one related to Auschwitz and the other relating
4to everything else. You are in the middle of
5cross-examining on everything else. My impression is you
6have a little way to go.
7 MR RAMPTON: I have miles to go.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: How far to go? We may have to put Professor
9van Pelt off, may we not?
10 MR RAMPTON: It depends , because what I call the Evans part of
11the case is not a narrative I tried to keep it started at
12the end of 41, and so as far I am trying to keep on that
13track, and I will I hope this week manage to get to the
14beginning of the autumn of 1942. Maybe I will get a bit
15further than. But then there are all sorts of what one
16might call various things such as Dresden, such as
17Reichskristallnacht, which have nothing to do with the
18narrative, but everything to do with Mr Irving's
19historiography. I shall have to get to those.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think having gone down the road of treating
21those as separate issues, as being taken together and
22leaving Auschwitz on one side, we must follow that, must
23we not? It will be hopelessly difficult for everybody to
24suddenly switch back to Auschwitz and then resume your
26 MR RAMPTON:
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