Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 32: Electronic Edition
Pages 36 - 40 of 222
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1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No.
2 MR RAMPTON: Dr Longerich told your Lordship, and we accept, we
3have to, he knows a lot more about it than we do, that in
4the beginning the transportation of the German and other
5central European, French and Greek, Italian Jews was just
6to the East, where they were put into ghettoes which had
7been vacated by the murder of the Polish Jews.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: A sort of two phase deportation exercise?
9 MR RAMPTON: Yes. Then eventually, probably sometime in 1942,
10they started killing the arrivals. There is a notable
11document your Lordship will remember from the Gestapo at
12Lodz, explaining how they cleared one lot and made room
13for the other lot.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Leaving aside the extermination, which
15is a separate issue and I understand what Mr Irving says
16about that, you do not understand there to be any argument
17or dispute between the Defendants and Mr Irving as to the
18fact that the deportation took place, and indeed also as
19to the fact that Hitler knew about it, because it is
20Mr Irving's case that that was all that was involved.
21 MR RAMPTON: No question. Hitler gave the order for it. As
22your Lordship will have seen, in one of the passages in
23our long submission, we draw attention, I forget which
24book it is, to a statement by Mr Irving where he says
25Hitler was neither consulted nor knew anything about the
26deportations. Why he should say that, I have absolutely
1no idea, but the fact is that Hitler gave the order.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: That was Hitler's preferred solution, as
3opposed to extermination, according to Mr Irving's
5 MR RAMPTON: In 1941 it may or may not be so, so far as the
6German Jews are concerned.
7 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
8 MR RAMPTON: So far as the rest, anyway.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I noticed something this morning which I had
10not noticed before, which is that -- have you got your
11more detailed written submissions?
12 MR RAMPTON: Yes, I have.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Would you go to Tab 5 (i)?
14 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: There is at page 56, paragraph 4, which seems
16to continue over the page on page 57.
17 MR RAMPTON: Yes, it does.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: The next paragraph is 12. I see what I have
19done. Yes, there is an 11 somewhere lurking way back.
20 MR RAMPTON: Paragraph 11 is on page 53. It has a large number
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. The next broad question is this. I am
23really asking for perhaps a bit of assistance on this. It
24is what we have called the genesis of the gassing
25programme, or the extermination programme.
26 MR RAMPTON: Yes.
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And what you have done, and this is your
2(ii), is very helpfully to set out what you say are
3gathered together from various files the various
4documentary references which demonstrate the setting up of
5the gassing in the Reinhardt camps and so on.
6 The slight problem I have with this way of
7dealing with it is that one has to try to confine the
8judgment within some sort reasonable bounds -- it is going
9to be horrifically long anyway -- and I do not think it is
10feasible to even begin to try to incorporate all those
11references. It would just overload it.
12 MR RAMPTON: No, we were not expecting that your Lordship
13would, of course not. It seemed to us, though, that now
14that one -- I mean, I am only a lawyer too -- had the
15chance to look at the thing with some considerable care,
16that that table led the eye through the stages really
17quite well; but if that is not so, then all I perhaps need
18to do is to refer your Lordship back to the little summary
19that I have given in this latest statement starting on
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, but I think the problem is what I would
22really ideally want to aim at myself in order to give
23anyone reading the judgment a sufficient but not
24overextended view of what the documents show to have
25happened is something in between the two.
26 MR RAMPTON: I think what I am being asked ----
1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You will think I am by very awkward.
2 MR RAMPTON: No, of course not. I do not know how much time I
3have, that is all. What I think I am being asked for and
4will willingly supply -- I might even get Dr Longerich to
5write it actually -- is really a chronological summary
6with a bit more detail than I have put in here and a bit
7less than I have put into the main submission.
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think that is probably right. Really in a
9way it perhaps will highlight the most significant
10documents. I think it is right, I mean, as you realize,
11I have been trying to sort of keep a tag on what the
12evidence has revealed as it has gone on, so I think I have
13quite a lot of them, but I suspect I am missing some of
14the important ones and I would like to ----
15 MR RAMPTON: Yes, I mean, I do not say I have covered
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Can I invite you to do that? Not at enormous
18length, but I think it would be helpful.
19 MR RAMPTON: We will do it in the course of the rest of this
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY: And bearing in mind, if I may suggest it, the
22issues that arise on the genesis of the gassing as opposed
23to Auschwitz, which I will deal with separately, seem to
24me to be, firstly, on what scale the extermination took
25place, and that is not really much of an issue now, as I
26understand Mr Irving's case.
1 MR RAMPTON: Not an issue at all.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: But also Hitler's knowledge. So that is the
3thing to concentrate on, and I appreciate to some extent
4that may not any longer be as stark an issue as it was.
5 MR RAMPTON: That is covered specifically, not only with what
6I said today in general terms, but there was an exercise
7that I did in re-examination with Professor Longerich
8which is referred back to in here, just that really the
9month of July and into August 1942, which demonstrates in
10Professor Longerich's view, which we obviously adopt, that
11it is inconceivable that while Himmler was supervising the
12mass extermination of goodness knows how many people in
13the General Government Hitler did not know about it.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. One of the things I was going to ask
15Mr Irving is whether he accepts the concessions that you
16attribute to him at various stages of your submission.
17 MR RAMPTON: I have given the reference to it somewhere in
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: You have, indeed, but I think it is right it
20should be put to him.
21 MR RAMPTON: I mean, what he says now, his position has changed
22throughout the case, but really the concessions, if I may
23say this now, which we have listed in various places in
24this long submission are those which were first driven out
25of him by cross-examination, no cleverness on my part, but
26by the evidence which was presented to him, and it was not
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