Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 32: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 222

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    "You have been disliked for 3,000 years. You
 1would never occur to you to look in the mirror and say
 2"Why am I disliked, what is it the rest of humanity
 3doesn't like about the Jewish people, to such an extent
 4that they repeatedly put us through the grinder?" And he
 5(a heckler whom Mr Irving said he had perceived to be
 6Jewish) went beserk, said Mr Irving. He said (the
 7heckler), "Are you trying to say that we are responsible
 8for Auschwitz ourselves"? And I, that is Mr Irving, said,
 9"Well, the short answer is yes". The short answer I have
10to say is yes ... If you (the Jews) had behaved
11differently over the intervening 3,000 years, the Germans
12would have gone about their business and would not have
13found it necessary to go around doing whatever they did to
14you. Nor would the Russians, nor the Ukranians, nor the
15Lithuanians, Estonians, Latvians, and all the other
16countries where you've had a rough time. So why have you
17never asked yourselves that question?" So much for the
19     As to the blacks (and homosexuals), Mr Irving,
20in an entry in his private diary on 10th November 1987, on
21the occasion of a visit to South Africa, recorded his own
23     "God works in mysterious ways, but here (that is
24South Africa) we agree he appears to be working
25remorselessly towards a Final Solution which may cruelly
26wipe out not only blacks and homosexuals, but a large part

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 1of the drug addicts and sexually promiscuous and
 2indiscriminate heterosexual population as well."
 3     These examples, again the tip of, I am afraid, a
 4very large iceberg, demonstrate, beyond doubt, that
 5Mr Irving is a profound racist and a radical anti-Semite.
 6But this is not the end of the story. For many years,
 7Mr Irving has travelled about the world giving vent to his
 8views at gatherings composed of, and organized by, others
 9of similar opinion.
10     Until he was banned in 1993. Mr Irving's
11energies were particularly devoted to the propagation of
12his ideology in Germany, where pro-Nazi sentiment has not
13only persisted but alas, since reunification, undergone a
14significant revival, particularly in the East.
15     This is chilling exposed by a demonstration of
16neo-Nazi boot boys, waving Nazi flags and chanting racist
17slogans, which was addressed by Mr Irving at Halle in East
18Germany in November 1991. In his diary Mr Irving
19described his speech at this rally as "rabble rousing", no
20doubt for good reason. The speech was greeted with
21enthusiasm, not least, perhaps, because he predicted the
22recreation of a greater Germany, by the reconquest,
23through economic power, of the former Third Reich
24territories in the East. This speech was greeted with
25enthusiasm and, unsurprisingly, shouts of "Sieg Heil!".
26     Holocaust denial is forbidden in Germany

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 1(notwithstanding which Mr Irving has, from time to time,
 2managed to slip in direct statements that there were never
 3any gas chambers). Elsewhere, however, it has been a
 4constant theme of Mr Irving's public utterances. He has
 5expressed it, on numerous occasions, in terms which
 6variously attribute the blame for the Holocaust on the
 7Jews themselves, accuse Holocaust survivors of lying in
 8order to extort money from the German Government, and pour
 9scorn on the suffering of Holocaust victims, both alive
10and dead. These utterances are often greeted with warm
11applause and loud laughter by his audiences.
12     Given that Mr Irving has repeatedly falsified
13history in pursuit of his obsessive desire to exonerate
14Hitler of responsibility for the Nazi persecution of the
15Jews and, in particular, of responsibility for the
16Holocaust, and given that he has repeatedly denied the
17Holocaust, without any historical foundation, and in the
18face of overwhelming evidence that the Holocaust took
19place on the scale and in the manner generally described
20by reputable historians, the question now arises why
21Mr Irving should have engaged so actively in the promotion
22of these historical falsehoods.
23     The answers suggested by the evidence are:
24Mr Irving is an anti-Semite; Holocaust denial, in the form
25in which it is purveyed by Mr Irving, is an obvious
26expression of anti-Semitism, and is music to the ears of

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 1the neo-Nazis and other right-wing extremists to whom he
 2purveys it; Mr Irving is a Hitler partisan, who has
 3falsified history on a staggering scale in order to
 4"prove" Hitler's innocence; this, like Holocaust denial,
 5is obviously very appealing to his fellow travellers --
 6after all, if the Holocaust were a "myth", then,
 7obviously, Hitler could have no responsibility for it.
 8     How far, if at all, Mr Irving's anti-Semitism is
 9a cause of his Hitler apology, or vice versa, is quite
10unimportant. Whether they are taken together, or
11individually, it is clear that they have led him to
12prostitute his reputation as a serious historian (spurious
13though it can now be seen to have been) for the sake of a
14bogus rehabilitation of Hitler and the dissemination of
15virulent anti-Semitic propaganda.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, can I raise with you now the
17points I think I need to clarify?
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think it will take very long. There
20is just one point that occurred to me as you were reading
21out the statement, and it relates to paragraph 41, where
22you are dealing with incineration capacity.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point you are making is that it is
25strange to suggest that the Bischoff document is a
26communist forgery, since it shows a rate of incineration

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 1lower than was estimated by the Soviets and the Poles. Am
 2I right in thinking that the estimate you are there
 3talking about by the Soviets and the Poles is the estimate
 4of the total numbers killed, rather than of incineration
 5capacity or rate of incineration?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     No, my Lord. Well, I think that is partly right,
 7if I may say so. But also on page 207 of Professor van
 8Pelt's report, there is rather a dense paragraph.
 9I cannot remember now off the top of my head how the
10answers come out. There is rather dense paragraph from
11which one can certainly work out, and I know Professor van
12Pelt told me what the totals were by but I have forgotten
13them. One can certainly work out that the 4,756 corpses
14per 24 hours was significantly lower than the Russian and
15Polish estimates for incineration. I think the Russian
16figure was 50 per cent higher and the Polish figure about
1730 per cent higher.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much. I did not know that.
19You have given me the reference so that has dealt with
20that. The other questions are really all rather broader
21ones. Can I take them in what I hope is the sensible
22order? The first one relates to deportation, and I will
23ask Mr Irving the same question in due course. It is not
24really clear to me what, if any, is the issue between the
25parties as to that particular phase.
26 MR RAMPTON:     No. I have never understood that there was.

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