Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 32: Electronic Edition

Pages 201 - 205 of 222

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    Professor Evans in his odious attempts to smear
 1wives. So what? It is true that I use their warehousing
 2facilities. So what? It is true that the IHR, along with
 3thousands of other retail outlets sell my books. So what?
 4It is true that I introduced them to subjects which some
 5members of their audience found deeply uncomfortable, for
 6example, the confessions of Adolf Eichmann, the harrowing
 7Bruns report and the Kristallnacht. I would willingly
 8read out the relevant extracts of my lectures to the IHR,
 9but my Lord, through the courtesy and industry of the
10Defendants' solicitors, which I have already had cause to
11praise, your Lordship is already funded with extensive
12transcripts of precisely those talks, and I would ask that
13your Lordship read them or look at them with this
14paragraph in mind.
15     I am accused of telling audiences what they want
16to hear, and that may be partially true, but, by Jove,
17having done so, then I used the goodwill generated like
18that to tell them a lot of things they very much did not
19want to hear. The Defendants would willingly overlook
20that aspect of my association with the IHR, and I trust
21that the court will not.
22     As for the National Alliance, an organization of
23which the Defence makes much, once again, as an
24Englishman ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have dealt with that already.
26 MR IRVING:     We have had it, but I am back again, my Lord. It

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 1must have been quite late at night when I wrote this
 2part. As an Englishman I am completely unfamiliar with he
 3nature the National Alliance, its logo and its name. It
 4may be that the name means more to the Defendants and to
 5those who are financing the efforts than it means to me.
 6It certainly meant nothing to the English members of the
 7gallery on the day that it was mentioned here.
 8     I have no meaningful contacts with the
 9organization as such. One or at most two of its
10individuals members who were already on my mailing list
11volunteered, like scores of other Americans, to organize
12lectures for me. One was Erich Gliebe who has always
13organized my lectures Cleveland in Ohio. On the evidence
14of his notepaper from the year 1990 (that is ten years ago
15now) he is also a National Alliance member. I ask the
16court to accept that when asked about it ten years later
17I had long forgotten receiving that one letter from him
18with its heading and its logo. Before each lecture date
19I mailed an invitation letter to my entire mailing list of
20friends in each State. The audience was, therefore,
21largely my own people, if I can put it like that. That is
22why Mr Breeding rather superfluously welcomes the
23strangers in his opening remarks on the Florida video tape
24as seen. Had he told me he would also claim to do so on
25behalf of his organization, I would have told him not to.
26It was my function and the audience were my guests and not

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 2     The photographs taken at this meeting shows, as
 3the Defendants' own agents have warranted, no formal
 4National Alliance presence, flags, arm bands or whatever.
 5The witness statement of Rebecca Gutmann has confirmed
 7     Learned counsel for the Defendants has drawn
 8attention to one 18-inch wide pennant, that is my
 9estimate, displayed at the function on a side wall with
10what they state is the National Alliance logo on it
11visible on the video film. Its logo appears to be based
12on the CND design. I did not notice it at the time nor
13would I have had the faintest idea what it was if I did.
14Evidently Mr Gliebe told me that his pals at the National
15Alliance had had a hand in organizing my successful
16Cleveland function, and that is why I noted in my diary
17with a hint of surprise that it turns out that the
18National Alliance had organized the other meeting too.
19     The court may agree that this phrase alone is
20evidence that their involvement was (A) not manifest, and
21(B) not known to me before. Given that the audience was
22largely my own making, it does not seem worthy of much
23note. I submit that this kind of defence evidence really
24does not meet the enhanced standard of proof required by
25law on defamation for justification of the more serious

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think you need bother with the next
 2paragraph frankly.
 3 MR IRVING:     In general, it is also to be stated that at
 4material times, namely when associated with those
 5individuals, they were not extremists -- I take it that
 6your Lordship accepts what I said in that paragraph?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not think, frankly, that the evidence of
 8your contacts with the BNP amounts to anything.
 9 MR IRVING:     Thank you very much. In general, it is also to be
10stated that at material times, namely when I was
11associated with those individuals, they were not
12extremists; nor has it been shown to the court that at
13that time they were. Thus at the time I first met this
14young man Ewald Althans in Germany late in October 1989,
15he seemed full of promise and eager to learn. I later
16learned that he had been to Israel for six months on a
17German Government voluntary scheme for young Germans who
18wished to atone. Over the two or three years that our
19orbits occasionally intercepted I could see that he was
20growing more extreme and provocative in his actions. He
21also became undependable and wayward in a number of
22non-political ways that I mentioned in court.
23     According to Der Spiegel at his 1995 trial in
24Berlin, Althans had acted for the Bavarian security
25authorities as a top agent until 1994 when they ended the
26liaison. The German security authorities had, as

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 1Professor Funke agreed, a record of hiring agents
 3     I now come to Ernst Zundel, the next paragraph.
 4Ernst Zundel is a German born Canadian for whose own
 5particular views I hold no brief. I later learned that he
 6had apparently written some provocatively-themed books
 7with tongue-in-cheek titles on flying saucers in
 8Antarctica, and on the "Adolf Hitler that I knew and
 9loved", which is said to be worst than outre; wild horses
10would not make me read such books myself. I had met him
11in 1986 and found that as a personality he was not as dark
12as had been painted in the media. I was asked to give
13expert evidence at his trial in Toronto in 1988 relating
14to the Third Reich and Hitler's own involvement in the
15Holocaust. I did so to the best of my professional
16abilities, and I was told that I had earned the
17commendation of the court in doing so.
18     It is plain to me from what I know that
19Mr Zundel has been subjected to 20-year onslaught by the
20Canadian organizations dedicated to combatting what they
21regard as Holocaust denial because of his dissident views,
22which are certainly more extreme than mine. My own
23relationship with Mr Zundel has been proper throughout,
24and the court has not been given any evidence to the
25contrary. At times it has even been strained because of
26the misfortune inflicted on me in retribution for having

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