Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 31: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 33

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    That bit I have no problem with. I took
 1more now about what I had got the impression was going to
 2happen, either today or, indeed, yesterday or perhaps part
 3of tomorrow, which is perhaps some assistance, oral
 4assistance, in relation to the issues which I have got to
 5decide, but I, obviously, had misunderstood what you both
 6had in mind.
 7 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I make such submissions in the opening
 8paragraphs or opening pages of my closing statement, the
 9kind of way that I believe your Lordship should think.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Let me explain why I am a bit unhappy about
11this. Just to take an example at random, and this is at
12random, Goebbels diary entry for 22nd November 1941 --
13Mr Irving, this is from your submissions -- well, you make
14your case in two paragraphs about that. Well, that is
15fine if that is where you want to leave it.
16 MR IRVING:     My Lord, your Lordship will ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am just bit a surprised.
18 MR IRVING:     Your Lordship will find that on several of the
19issues that your Lordship included in your list I have
20made no submission whatever because I am confident to rest
21on what I stated in the witness stand. There has been
22enough paper generated by this case already, and I do not
23think your Lordship will pay overmuch attention to them.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well...
25 MR IRVING:     In that particular entry that your Lordship is
26referring to, I think I brought out the salient points.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     So far as we are concerned, my Lord, we delivered
 2to your Lordship, I think, I hope reasonably early
 3yesterday morning, 9/10ths of what we had written. It is
 4although bulky for somebody who has a familiarity with the
 5case such as your Lordship, it does not actually take very
 6long to read.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I have read it.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Good. Now there are some few additional pages.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Those I have not read because they only
10arrived this morning.
11 MR RAMPTON:     What we have done is to follow as faithfully as
12possible the written scheme which your Lordship drafted
13and, as also your Lordship indicated we should, we have at
14the beginning of each section written an introductory
15passage in most cases.
16     I have no comment to make about what we have
17said, I hardly could since I am one of the principal
18authors of it. Unless it is unclear or wrong, I would not
19at this stage expect to have to say anything more about
20it. I had supposed that it was possible that either your
21Lordship or Mr Irving might have some questions or some
22objections to some part of it. If not, then I have
23nothing more to say about it. I have not anything at all
24to say about Mr Irving's submission (a) because we did not
25have the whole of it when it arrived, I do not know when,
26last night or early this morning, I do not know, and we

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 1did not have the whole of it, and (b) I have not read it
 2in any way because I have not had time. We still have not
 3got the whole of it, no.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, let us not waste more time. Both sides
 5are taking the position they do not want to add anything
 6to what they have submitted in writing and they do not
 7want to say anything about the other side's submission.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     All that I shall do tomorrow is summarize, in
 9effect, and largely not for your Lordship, obviously, for
10the wider public the effect of this fat file because I do
11not suppose for a moment that everybody who might be
12interested is going to read that.
13 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I was going by past experience when
14I prepared this. In 1970, the action I was involved in
15then, Mr David Hurst made his learned submissions to the
16court in his closing speeches which lasted two or three
17hours then Mr Colin Duncan replied on my behalf.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If I may say so, that was rather different.
19That was a jury action, as I remember, and nobody had to
20make a reasoned judgment at the end of it.
21     Well, that concludes today's business and I do
22apologise to the members of public who came perhaps
23expecting they were going to listen to something today,
24but that is my expectation too and we were all wrong.
25 MR RAMPTON:     We had tried to deal with that. I think, in fact,
26Miss Rogers explained this to your Lordship's clerk, and

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 1I am not blaming him if it did not get through at all. We
 2had realized that today might be a non-event which,
 3largely speaking, it has proved to be, and we knew that,
 4as one might say, the big event was going to be tomorrow,
 5so what we did was we actually put out a press release,
 6not only in this country, but in America, in the hope that
 7people would be deterred from coming today and would know
 8that tomorrow was the right day to attend.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I remember the problem about having to revise
10the date when you were going to make your, as it were,
11public statements, if I can call them that. The message
12that I am afraid I certainly had not received was that
13today was going to be a non-event because there were not
14going to be any final speeches on either side for my
15benefit as opposed for public consumption. I am really
16surprised, I am bound to say, but there we are.
17 MR RAMPTON:     I would have had something, might have had
18something, to say about Mr Irving's written submission had
19I had it in time and had I read it. I do not know. It
20may be that when we have read it, we may have something to
21say. I rather doubt it. Mr Irving has had the
22opportunity of going through what we have written.
23Apparently, he has nothing to say about it at this stage.
24 MR IRVING:     I opened it here in the courtroom this morning. My
25Lord, can I ask one technical question? Would it assist
26your Lordship if I provided my closing statement on disk?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I think I am very happy with it in hard
 2copy. Thank you very much.
 3 MR IRVING:     If the order of events was different, I would be
 4quite happy to have started with my closing speech today,
 5but the order of events is that the Defendant has the
 6word, the penultimate word, and I do not think probably we
 7should disturb that.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     The only other thing which I can add, which might
 9be helpful, is that Miss Rogers says, and she must be
10believed, that, if your Lordship has any difficulty
11finding any of the references, ours is, I think, now fully
12referenced and should not a problem, but one knows how it
13is. Documents do disappear, it is a fact of life. Or,
14more particularly perhaps, if a document is referred to in
15Mr Irving's closing submission, we will give every
16assistance to your Lordship in trying to find them during
17the course of today.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I do not know what you say in some of
19your sections, but one particular aspect which I think I
20did mention I thought was important and required thought,
21and I certainly had hoped to have some assistance in
22relation to it, was what I think in the end we called
23assessing Mr Irving as an historian. I do not what you
24say in that section, but I think I noticed there is not a
25section at all. You said nothing on that.
26 MR RAMPTON:     

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