Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 31: Electronic Edition

Pages 16 - 20 of 33

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    My Lord, before one leaves the question of this
 1which is day 26, and we are talking about this Muller
 2document: "I would like to see either a facsimile or to
 3know reliably where the document is". Both those requests
 4have been complied with. I will still do what your
 5Lordship asked.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not let us spend too long on this but what
 7I have noted for myself -- I may have got it wrong, I do
 8not know -- during the course of the trial Mr Irving
 9sought to enlist the assistance to verify the authenticity
10of the Muller document by obtaining copies of the other
11documents contained in the file of the Munich Institute of
12History where the Muller document was found. That is what
13I believe happened at some stage but I have no idea on
14which day.
15 MR IRVING:     My Lord, it is not only the authenticity, it is
16also the purport of the document, if I can put it like
18 MR RAMPTON:     I believe your Lordship's note may not be
19precisely accurate.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can somebody track it down?
21 MR RAMPTON:     I am told, I have not done it of course, that
22those around me, including Miss Rogers and my instructing
23solicitors, have searched transcripts for this last week.
24The bit I just read was the relevant bit, and Mr Irving
25said on page 128 of the same day: "I need to know the
26actual file number of course. I need to know the correct

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 1file number". Your Lordship said: "That is fair enough,
 2Mr Rampton. When you have found out which file number or
 3numbers it is in, will you pass that on to Mr Irving?" In
 4fact, we did a good deal more than that, because we
 5discovered the document, as I say, in three different
 6archives, and he has had all three copies.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the passage you just read out pretty
 8much bears out what I had in my note, if I may say so, but
 9I think we are getting a little bit bogged down in the
10Muller document. Yes, Mr Irving.
11 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I have no further submissions to make,
12I do not think, unless your Lordship wishes to remind me
13of one which I ought to have made. I think that
14everything is contained in my closing statement, which
15I intended to submit in that way. I was going to submit
16to you the contents of bundle E, but I have now done that
17in my closing statement, and I shall now take out of that
18closing statement what your Lordship avers is of less
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I hear what you say. My understanding was
21that, when we were discussing closing speeches, what was
22proposed was that there should be an exchange of written
23speeches, written notes of what was going to be said by
24way of speeches or closing submissions. That date slipped
25and I totally understand why it slipped, but I had thought
26that the plan was that you would spend today, and Mr

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 1Rampton would spend tomorrow, elaborating on what you
 2provided in writing. If you do not want to, there is no
 3reason why you should. That is what I recall as having
 4been the plan. Mr Rampton, am I wrong about that?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I think that was what I might call stage one.
 6I think that and again I am doing it only from memory, my
 7recollection was on the last hearing day, which date
 8I forget, what in fact emerged or evolved is on written
 9submissions each side would make a shorter, much shorter,
10oral submission. I have to go first as Defendant, a
11strange procedure it is, but there it is, that is what
12happens. I have to go first and I was given the first
13half of tomorrow and Mr Irving, I think, the second half.
14That is how I had read the transcript.
15 MR IRVING:     That is certainly how I understood it also, my
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you understood it that way. I am rather
18puzzled why we have all turned up today.
19 MR RAMPTON:     I agree; we thought, like your Lordship, first,
20that Mr Irving might have something to say about our long
21written submission, but I expect he has not had time to
22read it. Second, and more particularly, there was going
23to be an oral submission about the admissibility of his
24file E, his global file. He now says that he has made
25that, in effect, in writing. I am quite content with that
26and probably I shall not even respond to it; Miss Rogers

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 1might write a note about the law.
 2 MR IRVING:     I think the way I have done it in the closing
 3statement is the proper way to do it, my Lord. That gives
 4it the proper way and it avoids going through the very
 5lengthy file of documents that we had.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just explain to me what you both thought was
 7going to be discussed then.
 8 MR IRVING:     I had thought, and I am sure Mr Rampton was of the
 9same impression, that your Lordship was going put to us
10one or two questions concerning the documents that we have
11supplied to your Lordship over the weekend, namely the
12oral statements in their then existing state.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     How can I put questions to you in relation to
14a document which I received from you this morning?
15 MR IRVING:     You have certainly received the statement from
16Mr Rampton and I think both of us -- this is certainly the
17result of conversations I had with the instructing
18solicitors over the weekend -- this is what we anticipated
19would be happening today, that your Lordship would be
20clarifying final matters, dotting the remaining Is and Ts
21before we reassembled tomorrow for the oral submissions.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I will be measured in what I say, but
23I had expected to get a little bit of assistance really
24from both sides. But if you are both saying that you
25stand by what you submitted to me in writing and you make
26your public statements tomorrow, which I do not think will

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 1help me particularly in the task that I have, well, so be
 2it, if that is what you are both telling me.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     That is my understanding of what was to happen.
 4I had suggested to your Lordship, and I believe your
 5Lordship agreed, that this was a peculiar case, and I do
 6not mean that in any sinister way, but it is a case which
 7has some peculiar public importance, legitimate public
 8importance. Your Lordship took the view, and I believe
 9rightly, that there should be, unusually for a case tried
10by judge alone, a degree of oral statement at the end of
11the case.
12     My recollection is -- somebody is trying to find
13the transcript of day 30 -- that one of the things that
14was raised when we returned to court on that day, which
15I think was probably a Monday, was this question of how
16those oral submissions should be structured. I think what
17happened was that your Lordship said either yesterday or
18today there should be any submissions made, if there were
19any, about the long written submissions which your
20Lordship already has.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
22 MR RAMPTON:     And that on Wednesday the day would be shared with
23the much shorter oral summaries.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That bit I have no problem with. I took
25the view that was an appropriate course to take in the
26unusual circumstances of this case. I am really thinking

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