Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 30: Electronic Edition
Pages 21 - 25 of 33
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1 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think I will avoid it because I think it
2begs too many questions, as I say. So that is all you
3have, is it, on the ----
4 MR IRVING: No, my Lord, but I do know that Mr Rampton has a
5number of points that he wishes to make.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I know he does and he has very
7helpfully, as you know, made some amendments to my list.
8 MR IRVING: Which I wholeheartedly endorse.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: On the whole, I think I do too.
10 MR RAMPTON: I am grateful for that. If your Lordship wanted a
11one word substitution for "honesty", it might be
12"integrity", "integrity as an historian". No, I prefer a
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think it is better and I am not saying this
15tendentiously in either way.
16 MR RAMPTON: No, I realise that. It was perhaps too narrow as
17it stood and perhaps "integrity" as well is too narrow for
18what we are talking about or we think we are talking
19about, but we know what comes in under this heading which
20already will have been dealt with as we have been through
21the historical distortions, if I can call them that.
22 My Lord, there is one typographical error in
235.1(e) in the bit which we added, "Hitler's views on the
24Jewish question during the war, including Goebbels'
25diaries entries", it should be the 22nd not the ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I have the 21st actually. I have just
1spotted that that was not right. I suspect the reason is
2it is a diary entry for the following day, I do not know.
3 MR RAMPTON: That is right. Something went wrong there. Yes,
4and I do have the German of that which goes in bundle N at
5pages 127 and 127B. The English is already there, thanks
6to Professor Evans. But the German somehow got missed
7out. The relevant passage ----
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: This is N?
9 MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is N, N1. I do not think N has any
10children yet, has it?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, it has. E is the most difficult one
13 MR IRVING: It is very exclusive, is it not? It excludes a lot
14of the entries that I would have relied upon.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Well, yes, it is exclusive and at the same
16time it is inclusive. I had not realized it is spread as
17wide as this, at any rate in the context of the
19 MR RAMPTON: It does, and there are very, very grave criticisms
20to be made of Mr Irving in relation to each of those items
21in the bracket, and they all relate to the way in which,
22according to our case, he has tried to suppress, mollify
23or distort Hitler's expressions of his anti-Semitism
24during the war, particularly during the later part of 1941
25and the early part of 1942.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes, I can see how they come in now.
1 MR RAMPTON: Those are inclusive rather than exhaustive.
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. I mean the problem I have with them is
3that they come in elsewhere too.
4 MR RAMPTON: I know they do. There is bound to be some
5repetition. That is inevitable.
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I know. Can I ask you what the significance
7is, I think I do understand, of adding decrypts to
8whatever it is, 3B?
9 MR RAMPTON: Yes, that is simply because Mr Irving relies on
10two pieces of evidence, if I can call it that, for the
11suggestion that the number killed or died at Auschwitz was
12really quite low. One is the death books which were
13released by Moscow sometime in recent years, and the other
14thing is the Hinsley decrypts do not make any reference
15gassings at Birkenhau.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
17 MR RAMPTON: So they really go together, and our explanation
18for that is that really they are the same in both cases or
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. As I say, I am inclined to add, if we
21are making this as complete as it is becoming, two further
22topics at the end, which is the conclusion as to
23substantial truth and the availability, if required, of
24section 5, and then lastly damages, if any, injunction.
26 MR RAMPTON: Would your Lordship be wanting then to transfer
1some particularity out of 4 on the first page?
2 MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, because that is conclusions as to the law
3that applies, is it not, rather than conclusions?
4 MR RAMPTON: So 11 would be facts arising out of 4, would it
5not, or something like that?
6 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes.
7 MR RAMPTON: The facts governed by the principles in 4?
8 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Yes. Good. If in the course of preparing
9final speeches either of you come across topics that
10should be there but still are not, perhaps you could let
11me know by fax?
12 MR RAMPTON: We certainly will. That brings me to what to us
13is a matter of, to say some concern sounds over-dramatic,
14but it is this. I do not want and do not propose to ask
15your Lordship for permission to stand here for three days
16speaking. That would not be interesting for anybody and
17it would not be a good use of the court's time. However,
18this is a case of some peculiar importance, we would
19submit, and it has a legitimate interest for the public
20which runs far beyond the particular interests of the
21parties, and I do concede that it is the sort of case in
22which it would be appropriate, with your Lordship's
23permission, for both sides to be allowed to make a
24somewhat longer, but still not very long, longer closing
25statement than they made in opening. In my case, it would
26not necessarily follow the same structure as this, the
1long version, but it would certainly reflect the material
3 There are two next questions. First, when does
4your Lordship believe that that should happen, because
5again the public needs to know when it is going to
6happen? As a corollary of that, whether there is any
7possibility of accommodating rather more people in this
8court than are presently able to get in?
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Taking all that in reverse order, and subject
10to Mr Irving and then you can comment if you wish, I see
11your point about letting more people in. This court I
12think in the end probably accommodates as many members of
13the public as any court does, but it is never enough in a
14case of this kind. But, yes, I think, subject to
15agreement with all those concerned, particularly the Usher
16who has done a rather excellent job of keeping things
17under control ----
18 MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving has been sycophantic towards my
19solicitors, for which I genuinely and sincerely thank
20him, I do wish to say what a fantastic job the Usher has
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I think she has done a jolly good job because
23it is not all that easy. But, yes, within reason I think
24we will try to accommodate that. I am just wondering
25about the desirability of you and, if Mr Irving wishes to,
26Mr Irving, making what you might call the sort of public
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