Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 30: Electronic Edition

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    Not only that, my Lord, but also the implication,
 1used as evidence for the atmosphere at that meeting, the
 2kind of people who were there possibly even, but not as
 3evidence for Mr Irving's contact with them.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I do not wholly disagree with that. I
 5think the only thing I would add is there were some people
 6there, and I am afraid the names are not actually at the
 7front of my mind at the moment.
 8 MR IRVING:     Christian Worch.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Althans was one, was he not?
10 MR IRVING:     Althans was not there. I think the relevant names,
11as far as Halle are concerned -- I am sure Mr Rampton or
12Miss Rogers will correct me -- Christian Worch, who was
13the organizer. I saw the video again last night.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is no issue about you knew he was there
15and indeed you had some ----
16 MR IRVING:     I knew he was there -- well, I found him there, put
17it like that. I travelled down there with his wife Uschi.
18She was there.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who was the other one who did the speech at
20the beginning with the slightly sort of receding hair?
21 MR IRVING:     I think the allegation is that Thomas Dienel was
22there, a man called Thomas Dienel.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, he was there, I think you accept that,
24and I would be inclined to conclude from the video that it
25was pretty obvious you realized he was there because he
26made the opening and closing speech. You may deny that,

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 1but I mean that would seem to me to be the natural
 2inference.
 3 MR IRVING:     I shall certainly deny it when the time comes, my
 4Lord, because I have looked at the video again last
 5night. We are not visible together on the video and
 6I have no notion who this man is. There must have been a
 7couple of thousand people there whose names I do not know.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Again, you see, one has to look at the
 9totality of the evidence, including your diary entries, as
10to how long you were there. It is the sort of thing I
11have to make my mind up about, I think.
12 MR IRVING:     In that case, my Lord, if you look at the
13affidavits and things which are contained in the bundle
14which I just gave you, you will see that I state: "10
15minutes, made the speech and left" which is as far as the
16demonstration was concerned. I went there, spoke for 10
17minutes or five minutes, then got straight in my car and
18drove off. So whoever else is visible on the video for
19the remaining half an hour or three-quarters of an hour,
20it is neither here nor there. Those affidavits, of
21course, were sworn back in '94 or '93, long before this
22action was commenced.
23     Of course, in my closing statement I am going to
24resist most energetically the notion that I had any
25knowledge of who those particular people were. A number
26of the people, I am quite happy to acknowledge having

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 1known them, but I am certainly not going to admit knowing
 2people like Thomas Dienel.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you follow the way I am thinking at
 4the moment, and say anything else you want to, which is
 5that I do not think there really is a reason for not
 6admitting the video, but there is certainly every reason
 7to listen to what you say about why it is unrepresentative
 8of what happened.
 9 MR IRVING:     Can we be specific which video we are talking
10about? There were three videos, my Lord.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The Halle video.
12 MR IRVING:     Yes, but the three videos which were pictured on
13the photograph I gave your Lordship this morning, there
14are three videos. There are two raw videos and one
15broadcast video as broadcast by Tames TV and another one.
16I think we ought to know which one we are talking about as
17being admissible.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     As I say, I only saw one and I think you told
19me (but I may be wrong about this) that this was an edited
20version of the edited This Week version.
21 MR RAMPTON:     No.
22 MR IRVING:     No.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Pause a moment.
24 MR IRVING:     I think the one that you were shown, my Lord, was
25the raw version.
26 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. That is all there is.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is No. 223 in this little pile in your
 2photograph? The top two are unedited material.
 3 MR IRVING:     It was 226 or 227 you were shown, my Lord. It
 4could have been either because I have checked both of
 5them. They both contain the same footage whereas 223 is
 6the version as broadcast.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see, right. What is the difference between
 8226 and 227 then?
 9 MR IRVING:     I have had a look at them and they appear to
10contain much the same raw material.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I see.
12 MR IRVING:     I do not know whether they are dupes or what.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think my comment still applies; it
14seems to me that is something that is legitimately
15available to the Defendants to use as evidence, subject to
16your entitlement to make the sort of comments that you
17have been making to me this morning.
18 MR IRVING:     I certainly shall and I shall make my comments
19about the manner in which they withheld it from me,
20knowing that I have been looking for it for five years.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That I am not following at the moment, but
22that seems, perhaps, not to go to admissibility but to
23damages.
24 MR IRVING:     It does, well, to conduct of the case ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It comes to the same thing.
26 MR IRVING:     --- which is a matter of cost as well.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, maybe. Do you want to say any more
 2about it?
 3 MR IRVING:     Not on the Halle video, my Lord. The other bundle
 4E only went to the conduct of the case, my Lord. That was
 5the evidence that they had withheld the -- which now
 6brings us to your Lordship's list.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before we get on to that, shall I ----
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I believe this hearing is in open court.
 9Mr Irving has made some very grave allegations which, so
10far as I know, are completely illfounded against my
11solicitors.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not going to go into it at the moment.
13 MR RAMPTON:     No, I know, but I think, in fairness, they ought
14to have an opportunity to tell your Lordship briefly what
15did happen. I only say this, that what your Lordship has
16seen is not edited in the sense that somebody has sat in a
17cutting room cutting it. It is the film shot by the
18cameraman. One knows that it is entire because the timing
19thing, the little black oblong at the left-hand side, is
20continuous. So if it has been edited, it has been edited
21in that sense simply because the cameraman got bored and
22went and had a cup tea or whatever.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, that is not quite the way I would look
24at it. I suspect the cameraman, whoever he may have been,
25was looking for things that he thought would be good,
26juicy broadcasting material.

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