Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 186

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    The comment I would I make on this document, and obviously
 1and see the rank, but it is an SS corporal, I think.
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Well, he is quoting an SS Haupsturmfuhrer which is going
 3slightly higher up the hierarchy.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     He is what?
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     He is quoting Aumeier.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     But the actual document has written or drafted by an SS
 7corporal and we have had this kind of problem with
 8documents before, that you have to be very careful if you
 9are going to look at actual words used or actual senses
10conveyed, and I do not want to put it more strongly than
11that, just to say that -- I do not want to put it more
12strongly than that. I just want to say that it is -- the
13corporal's language, he is not a lawyer drafting a
15 MR RAMPTON:     No, if he had been, Mr Irving, he might have used
16rather more guarded language?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I do not ----
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is the advantage of these janitorial documents, is it
19not, that one sees the truth?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I agree it is an important document. It says the Jews are
21being killed at Auschwitz and this has not been denied.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The word is actually "liquidate"?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Liquidation".
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Well, that is why I say that this is the kind of
26language the corporals would probably have used to each

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 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Now we are going to go even further back in time,
 3Mr Irving. We are going to go back via your book Goebbels
 41935, 33, 34, and 32, but we are going to do it in one
 5sentence, as it were. Have you got your Goebbels book,
 6Mr Irving?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. My Lord page.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My Lord, page 46 of Goebbels.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My Lord, this relates to pages 692 to 698 of Professor
11Evans' report. It has to do with criminal statistics in
12Berlin and to some extent Germany but Berlin in 1932 to
13'35, and the way in which Mr Irving has represented the
14Jewish share of those criminal statistics, if I may put it
15like that.
16     Generally speaking, in this part of the book you
17are discussing, in general terms, how it was that Goebbels
18came to be so radical and anti-Semite?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is general context, is it not?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so. I am explaining how Goebbels came to
22be so successful in Berlin with his anti-Semitism, if
23I can put it like that?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     OK. It does not matter. It is all about Berlin, is it
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and why his anti-Semitism found a fertile audience.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, in the first, second and third paragraphs on page 46
 2there are some references to the Jewish deputy police
 3chief, Dr Wernhart Weiss, and then at the bottom of the
 4page, it starts: "Dr Goebbels would shun no libel to
 5blacken his", that is Dr Weiss's, "name. Instinctively
 6carrying on an ancient tradition of name calling he seized
 7on Dr Weiss' nickname of 'Isidor' and commissioned the
 8scurrilous Nazi marching song about him. He would
 9highlight", that is Goebbels, "every malfeasance of the
10criminal demimondes and identify it as Jewish. In these
11closing years of the Weimar Republic he was unfortunately
12not always wrong."
13     So now, Mr Irving, we are getting a recitation
14of the true facts as opposed to Goebbels' propaganda.
15     "In 1930 Jews would be convicted in 42 of 210
16known narcotics smuggling cases; in 1932 69 of the 272
17known international narcotics dealers were Jewish. Jews
18were arrested in over 60 per cent of the cases concerning
19the running of illegal gambling dens; 193 of the 411
20pickpockets arrested in 1932 were Jews. In 1932 no fewer
21than 31,000 cases of fraud, mainly insurance swindles,
22would be committed by Jews". Then we are referred to
23footnote 29 which we will find on pages 547 to 548.
24     The footnote for that last statement "In 1932 no
25fewer than 31,000 cases of fraud, mainly insurance
26swindles, would be committed by Jews", footnote 29 on page

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 1547 says: "Interpol figures" ----
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Excuse me. The footnote refers to everything ----
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     OK.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     --- prior to that.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That fine.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Everything after footnote 28, if you see what I mean? Not
 7just the last statement.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I follow that, but it includes the figures given in the
 9last sentence, does it not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Interpole figures, in Deutsche Nachrichten-Buro
12(hereafter DNB) July 20th 1935; and see Kurt Daluege,
13'Judenfrage als Grundsatz' in Angriff, August 3rd 1935",
14and then there are some general references about the
15general demimonde. Tell me first, Mr Irving, who is, who
16was, I should say, Kurt Daluege?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     He was the head of the Ordungspolizei which is the order
18police in Germany.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, Mr Irving. Tell us a wee bit more about him, would
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, he was a mass murderer later on. He was in charge of
22all the killing on the Eastern Front.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He was, what shall I say, an enthusiastic member of the
24Nazi Party?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. And he met his just desserts on the Czech gallows.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So one should be rather cautious, perhaps, about what one

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 1is told by Mr Daluege, do you not think?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, properly cautious.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Properly cautious. You will see that I have used his
 4files which are in the German Federal archives. That is
 5what the reference is that you left out.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am going to show you what are the references on which
 7you have relied.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     No? Yes, this one.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Now, the first of these documents, Mr Irving, is a
10written version, probably a draft, in the sense that he is
11going to speak as they say nowadays to it, I rather say
12from it, he is going to speak from, this is Daluege, on
1320th July 1935 at a press conference, is it not?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I have not seen this typed document. I relied on
15the Gothic typed face one.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Look at the Gothic one if you prefer because it is
17identical. The sixth paragraph of the Gothic is identical
18to the sixth paragraph ----
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- on our pages 16 to 17 of the typescript. Since the
21typescript is easier to read, can we look at the bottom of
22page 16 of this little clip? You will have to forgive me
23if my translation is a wee bit rocky. We will get it
24proper translated, my Lord, in due course. Does it say
25this, roughly speaking: "Even though we have succeeded in
26decreasing the number of cases of fraud in the Reichs

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