Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 186

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    I have not read the book as such, no. But may I also say
 1that had I seen that passage about the Muller document,
 2which is very interesting, obviously, I would have written
 3to my friends at the Institute of History or the very next
 4time I went there, because that is the source he gives
 5there, footnote 172, and on my next visit to Munich after
 61982 I would have said, "Can I, by the way, have a look at
 7that file, please?" and, obviously, that is one indication
 8that I did not see that document. But I have to say that
 9I will have submissions to make about that document when
10the time comes unless the Defence can produce the exact
11file of where it is stated to be.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do not worry; we are working on it, Mr Irving. Don't you
13worry about that.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am just reminding...
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We have plenty of time and lots of contacts. Many
16rabbits ----
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I need time after I have been told the file number,
18of course, to make use of it.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There are many rabbits in this burrow. Do you remember,
20Mr Irving, that in your account of the conference on 16th
21and 17th April 1943 you transposed a remark made by Hitler
22on 16th as though it had been made on the 17th?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that is one of the two errors I have corrected in the
24new edition of my Hitler book.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am pleased to hear it. My reason for asking you that is
26this. You have been aware of what the true chronology was

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 1at least since 1977, have you not?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes -- wait a minute, wait -- yes, since 197.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Martin Broszat pointed it out to you?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you remember writing to a Mr Ashton on 31st December
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, yes, clearly. What did I say? Can we see the letter,
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will but I will just read it out.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I am being sarcastic.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We may not need to get it out. "As for your views on the
121943 Horthy document, I believe I have replied to you
13quite fully about this, drawing your attention to Hitler's
14explicit remark to the Reichs vorweise" one day
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- "to the effect that nobody was asking him to kill the
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So in 1978 you were fully conscious that Hitler's remark,
21"There is no need for that" ----
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Was one day earlier.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- was made on a previous day?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And you never corrected it, did you?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     No. But you know my views on that, Mr Rampton, that

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 1whether the remark is dated in my book on April 6th or
 2April 17th, I think that is a very flimsy peg and the hat
 3falls on the floor ----
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I hear what you say, Mr Irving.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I said I hear what you say.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, you interrupted me before I had finished.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That was the excuse, if I can put it like that, that you
 9gave us last time.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     In fact, it is one of the errors I corrected in the latest
11edition because it is a minor error, but it is worth
12picking up.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. I want to ask you about another document from 1942.
14My Lord, this is the Kinner Report from Zamosk in Poland
15on 16th December 1942. I believe your Lordship will find
16that in file K2, tab 4, page 19A (vi). For once, my Lord,
17we have the English as well as the German. This is an
18English translation, Mr Irving, but you would probably
19prefer to use the German, I do not know.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I have them both here.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It concerns, does it not, a transport of 644 Poles to the
22work camp at Auschwitz on 10th December 1942, am I right?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you turn to look at the second page under the
25subheading or by the underlined subheading "arbeit

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     In German, yes, I have that.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, or the English. "Capacity for employment as
 3labour". We find this: "SS Hauptsturmfuhrer Halmeier",
 4in fact, that is a mistake for Almeier, "explained that
 5only Poles capable of work should be delivered so as to
 6avoid as far as possible any useless burdening of the camp
 7and also of the delivery traffic. In order to relieve the
 8camp, limited people, idiots, cripples and sick people
 9must be removed", the word is "entfernt", "from the same",
10that is the camp, "by liquidation". The word there is
11"liquidation", is it not?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes -- very explicit.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is very explicit. There again we see another example,
14as in Himmler's closing speech of 4th October 1943, of
15removal and liquidation, evacuation and extermination
16being used synonymously, do we not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "This measure", that is to say liquidation, "however
19becomes more difficult to implement because, according to
20an order from the RSHA", the English is translated as "in
21opposition to"?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     "In contrast to", I think.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, "in contrast to", I was going to suggest that, "in
24contrast to the measures applied to the Jews, the Poles
25must die a natural death." Does that not mean, Mr Irving,
26in fairly unvarnished terms, that whereas Poles must be

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 1kept alive until they die, the Jews can be killed?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     I think that is the interpretation on those words, yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And this is in relation to procedures at Auschwitz, is it
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     It is in relation to Auschwitz, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, because Aumeier was at Auschwitz, was he not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that not some sort of rather powerful evidence that
 9Auschwitz, so far as Jews were concerned, was so far from
10being a work camp a place where they were being
11exterminated, liquidated?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I am not saying they were being exterminated; it is
13a place where they are not being protected and ----
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They can be killed at will, can they not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right, yes, according to this document.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you mistrustful of this document?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     No. I am not challenging the authenticity of the document
18at all, but it is ----
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But are you challenging what is said here,
20that the policy appears to have been, in relation at least
21to this transportation, that any Jews who were not fit for
22labour would be liquidated?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     The comment I would I make on this document, and obviously
24it is an important document, I am not challenging that
25respect, but is written by an SS, what, Untersturmfuhrer
26which is, what -- I have to look at my military dictionary

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