Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition
Pages 81 - 85 of 186
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1 Q. [Mr Rampton] It is indeed. The reason why that letter comes into the
2case, Mr Irving, as I expect you will remember, is that it
3contains an account of what happened when the message got
4back to Hitler -- you will find it on page 98, will you
5not, it is in German, but you will recognize the passage.
6It is just above a red marking by you, is it not?
7 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] Read out what it was reported to Schaultz de Bois that
9Hitler had said after he learned of the Riga shootings.
10It is just before your red marking.
11 A. [Mr Irving] I have to find it first.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Schaultz de Bois went it Canaris to get him
13to intercede with Hitler?
14 MR RAMPTON: That is right. He wrote a letter to his wife
15apparently reporting what Hitler's reaction had been.
16 A. [Mr Irving] I am not deliberately delaying anything. I am just trying
17to find the actual passage.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] I think it is on page 98.
19 A. [Mr Irving] OK I am sorry. Yes, here we have it. This man, who went
20in and out, he is talking about Canaris obviously.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, obviously.
22 A. [Mr Irving] This man, who went in and out at the Fuhrer's, was to tell
23the Fuhrer the consequences and the atrocities of these
24methods once more in a most penetrating manner. No, he is
25said to have done this whereupon the latter, Hitler, is
26said to have said, and then comes the quotation: "Mein
1Herr, you want to go soft, do you? I have to do that
2because after me there will not be anybody else to do it".
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] Right. Now, that is some evidence, is it not -- I am not
4saying it is the strongest evidence in the world, of
5course not, Mr Irving -- that Hitler thought it his
6job -- Hitler, his job -- to abolish the Jews and kill
8 A. [Mr Irving] It is some evidence, yes.
9 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. Why have you never brought that to the attention of
10your readers? You have known about it since 1982.
11 A. [Mr Irving] I have known about it since roughly the same time as
12I found the Bruns book, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] Professor Fleming sent you a copy of his book, the German
14copy, which I think came out in 1982, did it not?
15 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] If you look carefully at that copy, just flick through the
17pages, you may agree with me that you have in fact read
18the whole of it up to page 104.
19 A. [Mr Irving] No. I think I set this out at the time I gave the book to
20you. I obviously dipped into the first 17 or 18 pages.
21Let us see where the markings end. I think 27 was where
22I stopped reading.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] See if you can find the next marking after 27.
24 A. [Mr Irving] Then I put it away. Then, when I needed a source to look
25up details on the Bruns Report, I picked it up and looked
26specifically at the Bruns passages. You will see the ink
1is a different colour.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] Sorry, I did not mean to interrupt. Would you look at
4 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] There is one of your markings there, is there not?
6 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, and I write "oy" in the margin.
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] There is something said that you do not like, I suppose?
8 A. [Mr Irving] Yes. It is what I would say to him. If he had read this
9out to me, I would have said "oy".
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] There is a slight diversion. What is it about that
11passage you did not like?
12 A. [Mr Irving] I do not know. Let us have a look.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] We have a photographic copy of the relevant part of this.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I am following.
15 A. [Mr Irving] Oh yes. On the basis of the liquidation order issued on
16November 10th and 11th to the newly appointed senior
17police chief and SS chief in the Baltic, who was Jeckeln,
18the order issued by Himmler and Hitler, I have underlined
19the words "Himmler and Hitler" and that is where I have
20written "oy" in the margin as though to say, "OK, Himmler,
21I agree but how are you just sliding in the words 'and
22Hitler' as well"?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] He no doubt has reached the position in 1982, which you
24have now reached in this court for the first time, that
25Hitler authorized the shootings in the East.
26 A. [Mr Irving] Are you asking me a question?
1 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, I am. That is right, is it not?
2 A. [Mr Irving] Let me just explain why I have written "oy" then next to
3it because that may be part of the answer. This is a book
4which has been written for the purpose of disproving me,
5as he admits himself, and this is admitted in the reviews,
6and this is the evidence on which he relies in disproving
7me, to prove that it is the Fuhrer's wish. In fact the
8subtitle of this book is, "It is the Fuhrer's Wish", and
9it is that actual quotation, the so-called liquidation
10order, "tell Lohse it is my order and it is also the
11Fuhrer's wish". I have written in the margin, saying "oy,
12is that as good as it gets?", the same as I have sometimes
13said to you, Mr Rampton.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, Mr Irving.
15 A. [Mr Irving] One had expected better, same as his Lordship has
16sometimes said to me, in fact.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] Turn back two pages, will you, from that marking to page
19 A. [Mr Irving] I did notice on the opposite page they are relying on the
20Wetzel letter, which of course the Eichmann manuscript now
21challenges as being a forgery.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton] That matters not to me in the least, Mr Irving.
23 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton] As we discussed earlier today in this court, recent
25discoveries have very little bearing on your competence or
26honesty as an historian. Page 86 Mr Irving. What is it
1that Professor Fleming is reciting on the top of that
3 A. [Mr Irving] He is referring to the Muller document, about which of
4course I have made representations to this court, dated
5August 1st 1941.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. The Muller document saying the Fuhrer is to have
7running or continuous information, or reports, about the
8work of the Einsatzgruppen in the East.
9 A. [Mr Irving] Got to be kept au courant.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Laufend is the German.
11 A. [Mr Irving] I was using a French phrase on the work of the
12Einsatzgruppen in the East, yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you remember that I put it to you in cross-examination
14that, contrary to what you said in court, you were indeed
15familiar with the Muller order of 1st August?
16 A. [Mr Irving] You put to me, yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton] Are you saying you did not read this passage in Fleming's
19 A. [Mr Irving] I have to say that you are asking me about something 18
20years later but I can say with great confidence that, as
21there are no kind of markings on those pages, then, with
22the high degree of probability, I did not read them.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Then I asked you by reference to this very passage, "Have
24you read Gerald Fleming's book?" And your answer is,
25"I have not read that book".
26 A. [Mr Irving]
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