Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition
Pages 76 - 80 of 186
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1 Q. [Mr Rampton] What is his connection with the BNP then?
2 A. [Mr Irving] I have no idea; he is an American lawyer.
3 Q. [Mr Rampton] No idea?
4 A. [Mr Irving] No.
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] How do you know he is an American lawyer?
6 A. [Mr Irving] Is it relevant?
7 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes.
8 A. [Mr Irving] You asked me what his connection with the BNP is and the
9answer is I do not know.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am mildly interested in your associates. Mr Irving. I
11am much more interested in you personally, of course?
12 A. [Mr Irving] Speaking of my first lawyer, who was Michael Rubenstein
13who was my lawyer for 25 years or 20 years and may be
14familiar to this court. I am quite happy to go through
15all the lawyers I have employed in my life.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] Many of my best friends are Jews too, Mr Irving. I want
17to go back now, if I may, some 50 years or so.
18 A. [Mr Irving] So the BNP file was rather slim. Can we agree on that?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton] That is your comment, Mr Irving. You have given one
20dishonest answer already in relation even to so slim a
21file as the BNP, which is that you it did not go to the
22BNP me in Leeds, and you told us in answer to our
23question, answer 45, "I have no connection with the
24British National Party nor have I been following its
25progress, nor do I have any knowledge of its official aims
1 A. [Mr Irving] I think that is a very reasonable and fair answer. It
2turns out that I attended one semi-BNP function 23 years
3ago or 17 years ago or something like.
4 Q. [Mr Rampton] 1990, Mr Irving.
5 A. [Mr Irving] Ten years ago.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Then you said: "From memory I have never spoken at a BNP
8 A. [Mr Irving] If you want to hang your hat on that then you are at
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] No, I have a whole row of pegs for my hat, thank you,
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, what is puzzling me a little bit
13is why you troubled on the 26th October refer to the fact
14that Mr Lyons was going to London for the BNP meeting?
15 A. [Mr Irving] Mr Lyons is an acquaintance of mine and he told me he was
16going to go London, that is all. He probably wanted to
17know if I was going to be in London at that time and he
18could come and drop in on me, but that is all. I mean, my
19Lord, I can be quite plain and say had I attended the BNP
20meeting your Lordship will be familiar with the fact that
21they have had my entire diaries and they would have
22dredged that little morsel out of the diaries and dangled
23it before this court. It is dishonest of them to have
24suggested any different. In view of the fact they have
25had 20 million words of diaries and these are the only
26references to the BNP, that is a minuscule, almost
1frantic, attempt to associate me with them.
2 MR RAMPTON: Describe the BNP? You seem to have some knowledge
3of them which I am afraid I do not have, but you tell me
4who they are, the BNP, while I search for a document?
5Hopeless right-wing, is that right, going nowhere? What
6did you mean by that, hopeless right-wing going nowhere?
7 A. [Mr Irving] Their attempt to establish a right-wing alternative party
8in this country which is, as I understand from newspaper
9accounts, riven by internal dissension, by poor quality,
10officers. I do not know. I do not follow them develop.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] Who is Mr Anthony Hancock who in Munich describes himself
12as Mr Michael Carter?
13 A. [Mr Irving] Are you asking if he has any association with the BNP?
14I do not know.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton] No. I am asking you who he is, what his political stance
17 A. [Mr Irving] I think he is a right-winger.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton] What do you mean by a right-winger, free market?
19 A. [Mr Irving] Somebody who is to the right-wing of me, shall I say. If
20I describe him as being right-wing, then he is right-wing.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] So he would like black people to be sent back to wherever
22their ancestors came from, that kind of thing, is it?
23 A. [Mr Irving] I imagine so, yes, but I have not had learned political
24discussions with him, so perhaps I should not give that
26 Q. [Mr Rampton] I am sorry, my Lord, there has been a hitch in the
1administration, I am afraid. Mr Irving, do you remember
2the question arose, first of all, in Professor Evans'
3report of a letter written to his wife probably sometime
4in 1942 of a German officer called Schaultz du Bois?
5 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you remember telling this court some days or weeks ago
7that you were not aware of the contents of that letter?
8 A. [Mr Irving] I cannot remember what I told the court, but I can tell
9you now what my position is.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] Please do.
11 A. [Mr Irving] At the time I was researching the background of the Bruns
12Report, checking on the names in the report, finding out
13who was who, I read the book by Professor Gerald Fleming,
14the relevant parts of that book, and Professor Gerald
15Fleming had done research into the same shootings at Riga,
16and he had managed to obtain a copy of the letter which
17Schaultz de Bois had written in 1942, and I read the lines
18in the Fleming book relating to that letter. In other
19words, I have not read the actual letter but I know the
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes, indeed you do. You were I think asked by his
22Lordship, this is day 22, which is 17th February 2000,
23page 103, his Lordship asked you this at line 23:
24 "Is it your case, Mr Irving, because you must
25put it", because you were cross-examining Professor Evans,
26Mr Irving, "because you must put it clearly and
1straightforwardly, that you were unaware of what
2Mr Schaultz de Bois said in this letter?" Mr Irving:
3"Yes, and your Lordship will have heard from the
4cross-examination over the previous ten minutes that I do
5not attach very great importance to the remarks by
6Canaris." We can ignore most of that sentence, except the
7"yes", Mr Irving. It was not a straightforward answer,
9 A. [Mr Irving] Ah!
10 Q. [Mr Rampton] You know very well what was in the Schaultz de Bois
11letter, did you not?
12 A. [Mr Irving] I am sure his Lordship is familiar with the problem with
13transcripts in court, that when a witness is having
14something read it him and there is a pause and the witness
15says "yes" as though to say, "Yes, I hear what you are
16saying", right? This should not be taken as being, yes,
17I agree with what you are saying, but, yes, I hear what
18you are saying.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I hope we are not going to treat all your
20answers in that light.
21 A. [Mr Irving] I think your Lordship is capable of seeing the difference.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY: I certainly see the difference.
23 A. [Mr Irving] What I would call a substantive yes rather than a nod.
24This is mine. Can I have it back now, please?
25 MR RAMPTON: Yes, exactly. Indeed so.
26 A. [Mr Irving] This is the Gerald Fleming book in my hand.
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