Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 71 - 75 of 186

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do not worry about whether the writ was served; that has
 2nothing to do with it. You, is it right, originally
 3disclosed an extract from your diary of June 2nd 1998
 4which consisted about four and a half lines?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There was then, as I understand it, a request from the
 7Defendants that you disclose more of that entry whereupon
 8one gets ----
 9 MR RAMPTON:     No. It was something that Mr Irving himself
10produced voluntarily to answer some question about the
11Himmler diaries.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right. So then you voluntarily disclosed
14additional from that day's diary entry?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     About 10 days ago, yes.
16 MR RAMPTON:     So we must not be misled, must we Mr Irving, to
17thinking that the diary entries that we have in this court
18are anything like the complete diary entries?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     His Lordship is aware of the fact that a lot of private
20material that has been taken out, a lot of personal
21material to which you are not entitled.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Of course. I, being the lawyer here, Mr Irving, or one of
23the lawyers, have no problem with the obliteration (that
24calls a Court of Appeal authority for it), from disclosed
25documents of material that is irrelevant, or that is
26legally professionally privileged, no problem at all. My

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 1question here is, in relation to 25th July 1998, there is
 2an ellipse, does that ellipse disguise a reference to the
 3National Alliance or not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     That is a very proper question and I will certainly have
 5it answered. I can send you the entire diary entry.
 6I will even ask you for undertakings, but I think that
 7I can say with honesty that, to my knowledge, I have
 8redacted nothing out of the diaries which is properly
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What do you know about the British National Party,
11Mr Irving?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I know more about them than I know about the National
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tell me what you know about the British National Party,
16 A. [Mr Irving]     What the Germans call a "verlorenes Haufen" - a lost
17heap, a band of hopeless right-wingers going nowhere.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But you speak to them, do you not?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Or you have done?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Tab 5, please, in the right-wing extremist file, page 2A
23for example, diary entry for some date in June 1983,
24second paragraph: "4.30 p.m. Train to Leicester. Spoke
25there to 27 people at a British National Movement meeting
26organised by Ray Hill".

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     You are asking me about the British National Party,
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. What is different between the British National
 4Movement and the British National Party?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not totally ignorant. I assume there is a
 6difference, otherwise I would have not written that.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Turn over the page, please. This is 17th July 1990, a
 8letter from ----
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Seven years later.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- Geoffrey D Brown. "British National Party, Yorkshire
11region. Dear Mr Irving, further to our telephone
12conversation today, I am writing to confirm that we would
13be very happy for to you come up to Leeds on Friday 14th
14September to address a special northern regional meeting
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     " --- whilst the bulk of the audience will no doubt be
18from the BNP. It is expected that there will also be
19people attending from other groups such as the Monday Club
20Yorkshire Area and something called English Solidarity".
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Last line: "Again, many thanks for accepting our
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. It is very similar to the functions in America where
25somebody who is a local functionary of some political
26group is inviting me to come and address an umbrella body

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 1which all sorts of functions will come. If you look at
 2the diary entry which covers ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, come on, that is letter on the
 4stationery of the British National Party.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     --- all these jumped up people, you notice he then gives me
 6his private address to reply to. He is inviting me as a
 7person, my Lord.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are you inviting me to accept that this is
 9not an invitation to speak, and an invitation by the
10British National Party to speak at a British National
11Party meeting.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     He says that the bulk of the audience will, no doubt, be
13from the BNP, and that I accept. It is also going to be
14totally hybrid. There are going to be people from the
15Monday Club which is another disreputable group, and
16English Solidarity. If you look at my diary entry which
17is on page 5, my Lord, you will see that there is not the
18slightest reference to me being at the BNP function.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, you do give the most appalling hostages
20it fortune, if I may say so. Please turn to page 7.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Perhaps I can say that this is mark of an honest witness,
22that I am speaking from memory, I have not prepared for
23this, I have not rehearsed. We are all hostages, not so
24much to fortune as to bad memory, looking at events in
251983, which is 17 years ago and 1990 which is 10 years ago

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now we are coming to 1993.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     --- and I speak at, as I have said many times, 190 or
 3sometimes 200 functions a year.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Page 7, please.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "British National Party, in Kent. Dear Mr Irving, the
 7British National Party is organising a rally in central
 8London on the afternoon of Saturday 6th November. It is
 9expected that several hundred people will attend. You are
10hereby invited to attend as a guest speaker".
11 A. [Mr Irving]     And I refused.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You refused?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     End of story.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You refused?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Sorry. So your BNP file is rather thin, I am
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, turn to page 8, will you. You are in key West.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, which tab was it again?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The same tab, page 8, bottom of the page: "12 midday,
20Kirk Lyons phoned".
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Tab 8 you say?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. Page 8, tab 5.
23 MR RAMPTON:     "12 midday. Kirk Lyons phoned. Going to London
24November 2nd to November 9th for BNP meeting". Is that
25you or Kirk Lyons?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Lyons, he is a lawyer.

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