Irving v. Lipstadt
Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition
Pages 61 - 65 of 186
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1 A. [Mr Irving] Not really, no.
2 Q. [Mr Rampton] You do not remember the remarks you made in South Africa
3about God working out the Final Solution remorselessly by
4means of AIDS against homosexuals and blacks?
5 A. [Mr Irving] I think if you are going to rely on a passage like that,
6you should see the actual words that I used in the context
7I used them.
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you remember the remarks ----
9 A. [Mr Irving] In particular, use the actual words and not your
10vulgarized recalled version.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you remember the remarks you made about feeling queasy
12when you saw black people playing cricket for England?
13 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, because they are better than us.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you remember ----
15 A. [Mr Irving] And I am sorry about it.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you remember that you reported that it gave you a
17shudder when you were welcomed at Heathrow about Pakistani
19 A. [Mr Irving] And it turned out that you associated the word "Pakistani"
20with coloured when I would have been equally queasy if it
21had been a German standing there checking my passport --
22probably even more queasy.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] Do you remember saying that you wanted Trevor McDonald,
24the famous black news reader, relegated to reading the
25news about muggings and drug busts?
26 A. [Mr Irving] Have you never listened to Dave Allen on television
1telling similar jokes and not being prosecuted for racial
2incitement? If somebody tells a joke about a black man
3and a Rabbi and a Irishman, is that serial racism? I
4mean, where does hypocrisy end and real indignation start?
5 Q. [Mr Rampton] Shall we read on? "We must have White schools", all these
6"Whites" have capital Ws, I point out, "we must have
7White schools, White residential neighbourhoods and
8recreational areas, White workplaces, White farms and
10 A. [Mr Irving] I think you will find the Daily Telegraph also capitalizes
11the word "White" and "Black".
12 Q. [Mr Rampton] All you are doing is putting a number of other rogues in
13your gallery, Mr Irving, by these remarks. However, let
14us read on.
15 A. [Mr Irving] You have upset at least one Correspondent, I am afraid.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] "We must have no non-Whites in our living space", and you
17know from their definition that that includes Jews as
18non-Whites. "We must have no non-Whites" ----
19 A. [Mr Irving] What an extraordinary remark.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] --- in our living space us and we must have open space
21around us for expansion", etc. etc. etc. Then read down,
22drop your eye, please, to "an Aryan society": "We must
23have new societies throughout the White world which are
24based on Aryan values and are compatible with the Aryan
25nature. We do not need to homogenize the White world.
26There will be room for Germanic societies, Celtic
1societies, Slavic societies" -- in that respect more
2generous, perhaps, than the Nazis -- "Baltic societies and
3so on, each with its own routes, traditions and language.
4What we must have, however, is a thorough rooting out",
5Ausrotten, Ausrotten, Mr Irving, "of Semitic and other
6non-Aryan values and customs everywhere".
7 A. [Mr Irving] All very interesting, but what has it do with me?
8 Q. [Mr Rampton] It has everything to do with you, Mr Irving.
9 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Mr Irving, you say that this is, as it were,
10news to you.
11 A. [Mr Irving] I read it with the same interest that your Lordship has.
12These people have obviously ----
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY: If you just wait for the question, then you
14will see what I am wanting to know. How do you react to
15this sort of stuff?
16 A. [Mr Irving] It is a most appallingly badly written piece of
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY: Badly written?
19 A. [Mr Irving] I am reading it now for the first time and it is
20head-shaking stuff, is all I can say. I keep on saying
21what is it doing in this courtroom frankly. I am sure it
22interests Barbara Gutmann no end and it interests the
23Defence no end, but it does not interest me in the
24slightest this kind of stuff, because wherever it was it
25was not within my cognisance and I do not intend to retain
26it in my memory quite frankly.
1 MR RAMPTON: Mr Irving, can you put aside that file; I do not
2think I need to come back to it, that National Alliance
3document, and take back the RWE 1 file, please, and turn
4to page 14.
5 A. [Mr Irving] RW1?
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] RWE 1, yes, in tab 2 where we were and turn to page 14,
7please. First of all, actually I think we had better
8perhaps start at page 11, as this will give us the context
9for what you write on 25th July 1990. The entry for the
107th December 1996, again at Tampa, and again I suggest
11quite obviously a National Alliance meeting, leave the
12first line: "I shook off the Australians around 2 p.m.".
13They were the Australian film crew that were following you
14around, were they not, Mr Irving?
15 A. [Mr Irving] Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton] "And scooted on ahead to Tampa, arriving at 4 p.m. Set up
18 A. [Mr Irving] I set up the room, in other words; it was not somebody
19else setting up the room for me.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton] So you must have seen the National Alliance banners, must
22 A. [Mr Irving] Were there any?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton] We have seen them on film, in this courtroom.
24 A. [Mr Irving] On this particular occasion?
25 Q. [Mr Rampton] Yes. This film that we have shown in court. We did not
26show the whole of it. We just saw you standing on a
1podium you speaking like an inverted CND sign, the
2National Alliance banner a few feet away from your left
4 A. [Mr Irving] Yes, of course it must have been that because that was the
6 Q. [Mr Rampton] Exactly. "Set up room nicely. Good audience at 7 p.m.
7Around 90 to a 100 people. Their book sales were not
8commensurate. Too many young people. I gave a few books,
9too, to lighten a load and I had four boxes of Goering
10(that is your book) to each hard paperback with P and
11his/her name is not given to us".
12 A. [Mr Irving] No, Pat Ryan.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton] "Vincent Breeding decided he had to deliver a Nazi-type
14introduction and preparation which I tried hard to defuse
15by my remarks about that and the Swastika t-shirts, Nazi
16tattoos, etc., will give the Australians any amount of
17ammunition to use against me in their feature. What
18short-sighted, mindless types I am surrounded with.
20 A. [Mr Irving] Will you please read on.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton] Certainly. "To my disenchantment, the Australian
22television team spent some time in the foyer interviewing
23obvious Nazi crack pots, so I shall stop co-operating with
24them and they can whistle for tomorrow's interview, then
25that is the Australians".
26 A. [Mr Irving] That is right.
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