Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 186

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    No. I stand entirely with what I said in paragraph 25,
 1who they are or who they were. I spoke in the United
 2States sometimes 100 times in one year, always to
 3different bodies, and I am not going to make any
 4particular note of which these bodies or these functions
 5or universities or groups or whatever.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I take leave, if I may, Mr Irving to inform you that
 7I reject every word of that answer. I will not take it
 8any further in that direction, but I do ask you, have you
 9familiarised yourself with the National Alliance
11 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I am not the least bit interested in it.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I thought you said you had looked at it since this case
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I fluttered through the things that were put into your
15bundles. That is when I have been mystified as to the
16relevance of them, frankly, catalogues of books and
17things. I thought, what on earth has that got to do with
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Because this poisonous material is on sale at the meetings
20which you have allowed yourself to be exploited at, if
21I may put it like that, held and organized with your
22knowledge by the National Alliance?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I understand that Karl Marx's "Das Kapital" and Adolf
24Hitler's "Mein Kampf" is on sale at Harrods, but that does
25not mean to say that people who go and shop in the
26crockery department are in some way poisoned, does it, or

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 1in some way associated with those poisonous gentlemen?
 2 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I foresee there is not going to be much
 3point in my asking Mr Irving to look at the material at
 4this stage. However, in the light of this passage in the
 5evidence, I will invite your Lordship to look at it along
 6down the line because it will form part of my closing
 8 MR IRVING:     Perhaps you should put them to me seriatim if you
 9intend that his Lordship rely on them and I can say point
10by point have I seen it before, answer no.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not seriatim, but what I think would be
12helpful and I think would be right, if I may say so, would
13be for you to put maybe a couple of them by way of
14representative samples.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I will simply put their ideology. One need not go
16any further than that.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where, as a matter of record, would I find
18National Alliance?
19 MR RAMPTON:     You would find the literature behind Rebecca
20Gutman's statement which is in file ----
21 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right. That is where I saw it too.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- C1, tab 2.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     That is where I saw it for the first time and, frankly,
24I thought what on earth has it got to do with me, which is
25precisely why these witnesses should have been called so
26they could have been cross-examined, in my view.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are now going to have the
 2opportunity ----
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not quite the same thing.
 4 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     --- to comment on the literature.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not quite the same thing, though, is it?
 6 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, the document I wish to refer to is the
 7second document of the appendix to Rebecca Gutman's
 8statement. The front page says: "What is the National
 9Alliance?" Ideology and programme of the National
10Alliance. Copyright 1993".
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Has Mr Irving got a copy of this?
12 MR RAMPTON:     I am hoping he will be given one.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I draw your attention to page 1 which is one of the
14leaflets for one of the meetings that is relied on,
15apparently, and there is not any reference whatsoever to
16the National Alliance. That is the Tampa function, is it
18 MR RAMPTON:     True, but that was, as you acknowledge in your
19diary, a National Alliance event?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     I say it subsequently turned out that the organizer was
21National Alliance.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, this is 1998, Mr Irving, not 1995.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do I already have this file that has just
24been handed in?
25 MR RAMPTON:     I am afraid mine is anonymous. You have got your
26own C1 bundle, my Lord, I think.

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It seems to be differently made up.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Can we, first of all, ask what paragraph of Gutman's
 3report relies on this document so we can fit it into the
 4constellation of evidence, so to speak?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     14, I think, I am told. This is another National
 6Alliance meeting at which you spoke, you see, Mr Irving,
 7in 1998. It might be worth looking at some of this. Does
 8your Lordship have it there?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I am just puzzled. I do not think
10I have ever had this file. I may be wrong about that,
12 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, may I first draw attention to parts of
13the Rebecca Gutman's statement? This is the Civil
14Evidence Act evidence, paragraph 10 on the fifth page, the
15eligibility requirements of the National Alliance
16are: "Any White person (a non-Jewish person of wholly
17European ancestry) of good character and at least 18 years
18of age who accepts as his own the goals of the National
19Alliance and who is willing to support the programme
20described herein". It continues: "No homosexual or
21bisexual person ... no person with a non-White spouse or a
22non-White dependant ... may be a member". Notice,
23Mr Irving, the "white" wherever it appears has a capital
24W. Now paragraph 14 ----
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I draw your attention to paragraph 3 first?
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     By all means.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     The flyer made no mention of the National Alliance. She
 2points out that the function had no National Alliance
 3presence apart from these leaflets that were, apparently,
 4offered on some table somewhere else in the building.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But for somebody, Mr Irving, like you who already knew
 6that it was the National Alliance who was organizing the
 7meeting, that really does not matter, does it?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you going to lead evidence that I knew in advance it
 9was the National Alliance organizing the meeting?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am suggesting to you it must have been perfectly
12 A. [Mr Irving]     That is something different, is it not?
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is an old friendship, Mr Irving.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Is this the consensus of opinion again or is it something
15for which you have evidence?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, please. You have seen the evidence in your own
17diary. You know the National Alliance, do you not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Will you take me to the evidence in the diary?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have just been through it, Mr Irving. I
20do not think we need to go through it again.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     This is a different meeting, my Lord.
22 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, different meetings, three years later?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     It is conflating different meetings, if I can use that
24word. If he relies on this document, then, of course, we
25have to look at the actual meeting where the witness
26obtained this document which was, apparently, not a

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