Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 46 - 50 of 186

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    It is from the National Alliance bulletin, yes. It is a
 1corner, and it is captioned "David Irving lecturing at
 2Cleveland. A fund raising activity for the Cleveland
 3unit." Under "Cleveland activity", the cross heading in
 4the middle column says: "On October 1st, the Cleveland
 5united hosted", sorry, just looking for a date, "October
 61st, the Cleveland unit hosted a very successful lecture
 7by the British historian and revisionist author, David
 8Irving. More than 100 tickets were sold at $10 each.
 9After paying Mr Irving's $500 fee and the modest rent for
10the hall, the unit had a profit of approximately $400. To
11this was added the income from sales of Alliance books and
12from a bake sale". Drop down, please, to the bottom of
13the page.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     From a bake sale organised by the unit's women -- a very
15dangerous body, obviously!
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, of course, it is like the Women's Institute! Drop
17down to the bottom of the page: "Mr Irving's lecture was
18received enthusiastically by the audience and he was able
19to autograph and sell a substantial number of his own
20books during the meeting. The Cleveland unit's next
21public activity will be a white power rock concert on New
22Year's Eve"?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     "White power rock concert".
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Now please turn over the page to page 4.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you going to ask a question about that? Have I ever
26seen that before? The answer is no.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, this is just part of the narrative, Mr Irving. My
 2question may sometimes come after several documents. You
 3have to be patient.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, sometimes I will give an immediate response.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Page 4, your diary, October 1st 1995: "Pittsburg,
 6Pennsylvania to Cleveland, Ohio. Rose at 7.30 a.m..
 7Packed. Left for Cleveland around 3 p.m. Arrived at
 8meeting place 6.00 p.m. Fine meeting, around 150 people,
 9many ethnic Germans. Gate of $500 was agreed plus £1700
10book sales. What a relief. Sat up to 2 a.m. with my
11hosts after supper chatting". October 2nd: "Rose 9.50
12a.m. breakfast with my hosts, plural, lawyer etc." Do
13you still maintain that you do not know who these people
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The host was Mark Wavra who is a well-known
16Cleveland lawyer who had nothing to do with the Alliance.
17Is that the question you are asking?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They were your hosts for this meeting, Mr Irving.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     The hosts are the people I am actually staying with. If
20you saw the previous letter, the first letter, that they
21have arranged for me to be accommodated in this lawyer's
22home, I have nothing against lawyers.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that Mark Wavra the -- I can never remember what "IHR"
24stands for and I do not much care. IHR is historian?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Sorry, it is not. It is Wavra, W-A-V-R-A.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, it is mishearing?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I point out, of course, there is not the slightest
 2reference either in that diary entry or in any other diary
 3entry to the NA or the National Alliance or to any other
 4body which confirms what I said about having had no
 5knowledge of them.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, I asked you to be patient. You have jumped in as
 7you so often do ----
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     ---- and I turn now, please, to page 5?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Page?
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     5, your diary again?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     October 6th 1995, same year?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Five days later: "Savanna, Georgia to Tampa, Florida.
167.45 a.m. radio show from Tampa. Did a 20 minute
17interview and they announced the location. Not amused by
18that. Drove all day to Tampa, phoned Key West, etc. etc.
19etc. Arrived at the Hotel Best Western at 4.00 p.m.
20Sinister gent with pony tail was the organizer. Turned
21out the meeting here is also organized by the National
22Alliance and National Vanguard Bookshop. Well
23attended". Now, Mr Irving, do you want to revise the
24answers you have just been giving me?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     It just goes to show how bad my memory is, yes, but it
26always illustrates, does it not, the fact that I am

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 1learning as I go along, and that I had not the slightest
 2notion who these people are. Would that be a proper
 3interpretation to put on that entry?
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving, it would not. Turn now to the meeting
 5here, Tampa, is also organized by the ----
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     The same entry.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- National Alliance. In other words, you knew that both
 8the meetings were organized by the National Alliance?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Obviously, I had subsequently learned that the previous
10one was also organized by this body which I had never
11heard of.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We have seen that speech in Tampa in full in this court
13some weeks ago. On this occasion the host, let me call
14him this, whose name I am afraid I do not know, but I
15suppose it might have been this chap Gliber, I do not
16know, although he seems to be in Cleveland and not Tampa,
17he opened the proceedings with you on the platform and the
18banner nearby: "Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of the
19National Alliance and National Vanguard Books, I would
20like to proudly welcome Mr David Irving." Do you want to
21revise your evidence, Mr Irving?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, obviously he put in a plug, what on TV would be
23called a plug for his own particular passion.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "On behalf of the National Alliance and National Vanguard
25Books", remember your diary entry ----
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- organized by the National Alliance and National
 2Vanguard Bookshop, "On behalf of the National Alliance and
 3National Vanguard Books, I would like proudly", "I would
 4like to proudly", he is an American, "I would like to
 5proudly welcome Mr David Irving"?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, Mr Irving.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, as I say, he has taken the advantage that he is
 9making the opening speech to put in a plug for his own
10friends. That is all I can say, and it does not contrast
11with what I said in paragraph 25, that I have been invited
12by an individual and that the audience is almost entirely
13made up from my own list and that is why he is putting in
14his plug and why he is welcoming the outsiders.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "I have no association with a body known to the Defendants
16as the National Alliance as such or whatsoever. I do not
17agree that I have spoken at any National Alliance
18meetings". Two statements which are both completely
19false, am I right?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     No. I stand entirely with what I said in paragraph 25,
21and it is quite evident from my diary entries that I am
22learning as I literally drive around the United States
23that I speak at these functions and afterwards I have
24found out, "Oh, that one was organized by this person too
25or by that body too", and I find out subsequently. Once
26again, I have to say that I have not the faintest notion

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