Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 186

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    "Hello David", it says, "I have arranged for you to speak
 1Cleveland. Enclosed is a map, Croatian Home", and then
 2the address. "You are welcome to stay again at the
 3residence of Mark Wavra", I think it is, in somewhere or
 4other and then the telephone number is given?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Stay in touch and call me if need be."
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That letter, I suspect, comes from your discovery, I do
 9not know?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Almost certainly, yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, so is this letter a forgery?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, how do you explain it?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, if you would like to ask me specific questions?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     How do you explain this letter in the light of the answers
16you gave us on paper?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Would you ask me a specific question?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It looks like a letter from an official of
19the National Alliance because it has "National Alliance"
20at the top, and it looks as if you have a prior
21relationship with the writer, Gliber, is that the point?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Can I draw your attention to the second sentence of my
23answer No. 25? It might be that on occasions a gentleman
24who was a member of the National Alliance offered to
25organize a lecture for me, in other words, he undertook to
26find a suitable room. Is that the kind of letter you

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 1would expect in response, describing the room that he has
 2offered, that he has provided? No reference that it is
 3going to be a National Alliance function; he is just using
 4his own notepaper?
 5 MR RAMPTON:     "I have no association with a body known to the
 6Defendants as the National Alliance as such, or
 7whatsoever. I do not agree that I have spoken at any
 8National Alliance meetings". Those were false statements,
 9were they not, Mr Irving?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Still completely true. This is not an association with a
11body. He is not writing in official capacity to me. He
12is writing to me as a personal friend. I do not know why
13he used that notepaper. It was not a National Alliance
14function, and if you asked me 10 years later, do
15I recognize that logo on the top left-hand corner, I do
16not recognize it; and if you had asked me even between the
17time we saw the video and now, I could not have drawn it
18from memory, let alone 10 years later. Can you draw from
19memory the logo of the Automobile Association, just to
20give one example? I do not know.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have not finished, Mr Irving. Do not be too hasty.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     That is why I asked you to ask specific questions rather
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The specific question is you know perfectly well who the
25National Alliance are and you always have done?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I now know who they are, yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no. You always knew who they were.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     That is a different question, is it not?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You have cooperated with them willingly. You agreed to
 4speak at meetings hosted or organized by them in the full
 5knowledge of who they were, did you not?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     The answer is, no, I did not. I am talking in the past
 7tense. I know now who they are because I have now read a
 8lot of literature provided by the Defendants about them.
 9At the time that, at all material times, I was not aware
10who the National Alliance were, I was not aware of what
11their logo looked like, the fact that somebody had some
12kind of logo on the top left-hand corner of letters
13certainly is not going to embed itself in my
14consciousness. Why should it?
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will tell you why in a moment. Turn over to page 2,
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Is there any logo on this letter?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, there is no logo ----
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Is there any "National Alliance" heading on the letter?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Please be patient. You will see how the matter develops
21very shortly. This is dated 15th September 1995. It
22comes from somebody called Erich Gliber?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     The same man.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     The same man, yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. Is it?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, the same man.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Oh, yes, the same man, the same fellow. This time
 3you are going to be speaking at Lithuanian Village in
 4Cleveland as opposed to Croatian Home in Cleveland.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Do you want to make anything out of that? I mean, you
 6appear to be emphasising those words as though you were
 7attaching importance to.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do, perhaps, Mr Irving.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Do I detect any xenophobia there?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, answer the questions.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Perhaps you can help us.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I have nothing against Croatians or Lithuanians.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, during the war the Croatians were one of the Nazi
14puppet governments, were they not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Is that the point you are trying to make?
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Answer my question, please, Mr Irving.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     The Croatians?
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     There was a puppet Croatian government, yes. There was a
20puppet Belgian Government and a puppet Dutch Government,
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But the Croatians -- I do not want to go too far down this
23road -- it is right were enthusiastic supporters of the
24Nazis, were they not?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     All the Croatians? I do not know.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no, the Croatian Government.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, the puppet government was. That is what puppet
 2governments do. There were puppet Marxist governments.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And during the war in Lithuania, as we have seen,
 4Reinhardt Heydrich saw Lithuania, amongst other places in
 5the Baltic states, as being a fertile source of
 6anti-Semitic problems, did he not?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I think most of the Eastern European countries were, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you know why these places are called "Croatian Home"
 9and "Lithuanian Village"?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I think they had -- if you look in one of the photographs
11which I will present to the court, there is actually a
12Croatian banner hanging on the back wall. It is rather
13like the British Legion. The veterans who live in that
14area, in the Cleveland area, there are a lot of these
15ethnic minorities, and I have got nothing against ethnic
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     But they have their own meeting place, their own social
19halls and so on.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now, the next page over, page 3 in the circle in
21handwriting at the bottom of the page, is from what?
22There will be an index somewhere.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I have no idea at all. Never seen it.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is from the National Alliance bulletin, yes. It is a
25very bad photograph and one could not tell it was a
26photograph of anything at all in the top right-hand

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