Irving v. Lipstadt

Transcripts

Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 31 - 35 of 186

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    "The dummies were still standing in Auschwitz, these
 1the word "probably" therefore has to be looked at and
 2emphasised.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Carry on. Read on.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     In other words ----
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Read on. The fact is that Auschwitz we know that what
 6they show the tourists is fake because the Poles have no
 7now admitted it. I am sorry, "reconstructed" is what you
 8call it.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     But the other places, Maidonek, Treblinka and so on, my
11hands are tied in really dealing with that because, for
12the purposes of this court action, I am not challenging
13them.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we are getting a bit confused here.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, perhaps I can help?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, because I may have misunderstood the
17position. I think it all arose out of your saying to
18Mr Rampton earlier that, whenever you refer to no Jews, or
19virtually no Jews, having died in concentration camps, you
20add the rider that you are really talking about what you
21call the dummy constructed after the war at Auschwitz.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     I hesitate to allow your Lordship to put words into my
23mouth.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Let us go back on the transcript for today and we
25will find it.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I am much more specific than that, and I say that, in this

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 1rather tasteless way, more women died on the back seat of
 2that car than died in the gas chamber at Auschwitz,
 3meaning the one they showed the tourists.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     It is when I was reading the transcript before we
 5saw the video. We will get the exact words, my Lord.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     It is part of the gramophone record, if I can put it like
 7that.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     In the light of yesterday's evidence from
 9Professor Funke -- I cannot read that. Now, Mr Irving, I
10am going to read you back your answer.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 24.
12 MR RAMPTON:     Page 24 of today. This what gave rise to all of
13this, you see, Mr Irving. You made yet another, shall
14I say courteously -- "The applause drowned the rest of the
15sentence, unfortunately, which is, 'in the gas chambers of
16Auschwitz which are shown to the tourists'. I always say
17exactly the same thing". It was a false statement, that,
18was it not?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     It was clearly wrong.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     But not deliberately wrong. I have this same part of my
22speech that I deliver again and again and it is possible
23that, in the heat of this particular speech which was
24spoken without notes, as you will see ----
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     -- to a non-skinhead audience.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What was false is that you always say exactly the same
 2thing. You do not. You frequently refer to the
 3non-existence of any gas chambers in the plural.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I think you will have to show me the passages where
 5I frequently say this.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The point is you deny the existence of gas
 7chambers and, when you do that, you do not talk only of
 8the dummies such as the one that was constructed after the
 9war at Auschwitz. That I think is the point.
10 A. [Mr Irving]     If that is the point he is trying to make, then of course
11he is wrong because I have made it quite plain earlier in
12this case that I accept that in Auschwitz Birkenhau gas
13chamber experiments were conducted, for example, in the
14bunkers, the two buildings called the bunkers, and to that
15degree I certainly do not deny it.
16 MR RAMPTON:     I expect you have been reading the Eichmann
17memoirs, have you not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Not yet. If you know how little time I have.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you do a word search on them, look for the word
20"Vergasungslager".
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I take your tip. Thank you very much.
22"Vergasungslager"?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, "Vergasungslager", gassing camps, Mr Irving.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I will tell you the result of that when I come here
25tomorrow.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am just going to finish. My Lord, unless your Lordship

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 1wants me to ----
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, if you intend to rely on that particular word,
 3I think you should show me the passage so I can comment on
 4it now, rather than just leave it hanging in mid air.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     At the moment we have not gone to the
 6Eichmann diaries at all, and I do not know whether we are
 7even going to.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I am going to continue, my Lord, if I may, with
 9page 18 of the transcript, unless your Lordship would like
10to see it on the screen.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I think not.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     That is certainly not the way to introduce the Eichmann
13memoirs, to do it like that, just to throw one word out.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     They have not been introduced, Mr Irving. Let
15us go back to page 18.
16 MR RAMPTON:     After the statement that more women died on the
17back seat of Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquidick than
18died in the gas chambers (plural) at Auschwitz, there is
19some applause which did not drown out anything else you
20said. You then continued: "Now" you think that is
21tasteless. What about this? I am forming an association
22especially dedicated to all these liars, the ones who try
23and kid people that they were in these concentration
24camps. It is called the Auschwitz Survivors of the
25Holocaust and Other Liars Assholes", and you spell it out
26for them so that they get the joke. "Cannot get more

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 1tasteless than that but you have got to be tasteless
 2because these people deserve all our contempt and in fact
 3they deserve the contempt of the real Jewish community and
 4the people, whatever their class and colour, who did
 5suffer." I do not know that I need to go on.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I got something wrong, of course.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What was that?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     The title of that association. It is the Association of
 9Spurious Survivors of the Holocaust, but, once again, in
10the heat of the talk, I got it wrong.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am awfully sorry about that. The fact is, Mr Irving,
12what you are doing here, as you were at Hagenau and on
13other occasions that we have seen ----
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Mocking the liars.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh yes, Mr Irving, but why the applause?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Because I am a good speaker, Mr Rampton.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I am a good speaker.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, Professor Funke had you bang to rights, did he
20not? What you are doing is appealing to, feeding,
21encouraging, the most cynical radical anti-Semitism in
22your audiences, are you not?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Do liars not deserve to be exposed as such? If you saw
24the audience as you saw them in that film, did you see any
25skinheads or extremists or people wearing arm bands?
26I did not. They looked like a perfectly ordinary bunch of

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