Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 26 - 30 of 186

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    Sandwiched between that Jewish gentleman whom you
 1Ministry of Justice, announced three or four weeks ago the
 2British newspaper, the Independent, reported this news
 3communique, that every year 200 tourists go to Jerusalem,
 4which is, of course, that magnificent city, this crossing
 5point of three different religions and cultures. They are
 6so overwhelmed by these cross currents, these, the vibes
 7of the city of Jerusalem, that every year 200 tourists go
 8there and believe that they are the messiah reborn and
 9returning to Jerusalem. They cannot all be the messiah.
10At most one of them can be the messiah", and you are not
11talking about Jesus of Nazareth, are you?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     It is quite clear that I am. This is a genuine statement
13released by the Israeli government.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Carry on.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are talking about the messiah, for whom the Jewish
17people are still waiting, are you not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     This reminds me of mathematical equations. You said the
19letter E in an equation can be the exponential factor but
20need not be. These people could be the messiah, but need
21not be, if I can put it like that.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You call it a parable, do you not? Come on.
23 MR RAMPTON:     "They cannot all be the messiah. At most, one of
24them can be the messiah, so 199 of them are liars".
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "But they have had this immense religious experience, and

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 1it is rather the same kind of trauma as people who went to
 2Auschwitz, or people who believed they went to Auschwitz,
 3or people who can kid themselves into believing they went
 4to Auschwitz, and the only way to overcome this appalling
 5pseudo-religious atmosphere that surrounds the whole of
 6this immense tragedy called World War II is to treat these
 7little legends with the ridicule and the bad taste that
 8they deserve. Ridicule alone is not enough. You have got
 9to be tasteless about it. You have to say things like
10more women died on the back seat of Senator Edward
11Kennedy's car at Chappaquidick than died in the gas
12chambers of Auschwitz (applause)".
13 A. [Mr Irving]     The applause drowned the rest of the sentence,
14unfortunately, which is "in the gas chambers of Auschwitz
15which are shown to the tourists". I always say exactly
16the same thing.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Oh no, you do not, Mr Irving. We went through that
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is it on the video?
20 MR RAMPTON:     This is on the video. Would your Lordship like to
21see it?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, unless it is going to take ages to get
23it going.
24 MR RAMPTON:     No, it is not. It is only the rest of this page
25really. Just go from where it is.
26 (The video was shown).

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Stop there, please.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     You are right. You are absolutely right. In that
 3particular one I did not put in the rider that that is the
 4one they show the tourists.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You did not. Frequently you have not. Not only have
 6you not put in the rider, you have added other gas
 7chambers elsewhere, Treblinka, Belzec. Not here. In the
 8documents we were looking at yesterday.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     You are adding them now verbally into my speech.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, I am not.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Shall we just abide by the speech that I was speaking
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You said a moment ago that you never make any reference to
14any gas chamber but the one which was reconstructed by the
15Poles after the war. That is simply false, is it not?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     The one that is faked by the Poles after the war.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, whatever you like. It is simply a false statement,
18is not, Mr Irving? We saw a whole lot of statements by
19you yesterday, did we not?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Will you please ask the question again because you ----
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Your statement that you never make reference to any but
22what you call the fake gas chamber at Auschwitz (i), gas
23chamber singular, is a false statement, is it not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I frequently refer to gas chambers elsewhere, yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     But in what connection?

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In the context of saying that they never existed.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     In Dachau, for example. We now know that eyewitnesses
 3reported there were gas chambers in Dachau, and we now
 4know the German government has confirmed there were never
 5any gas chambers in Dachau. That is a typical example.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, I do not believe you have that bad a memory. I
 7really do not.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     You just asked me a question and I have answered it.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     In that case I am going to have to remind you of what you
10were shown but yesterday. Laborious, but necessary.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Dachau is typical example of survivors who were caught out
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You will have to be patient with me, Mr Irving. I will
14find it. This is just an example from page 156 of
15yesterday's transcript, if you have yesterday's
16transcript. This is a speech by you at Moers that we
17looked at yesterday.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Would you like a copy of it?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     If it is not going to be too tedious.
20 MR RAMPTON:     I will read it out. You said: "The dummies are
21still standing in Auschwitz, because the German government
22has no sway there". Page 156, line 8. "The dummies are
23still standing in Auschwitz because the German government
24has no sway there, and understandably that is problem for
25you" -- that is the Germans -- "that you have a
26government in Bonn that allows its own people to be

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 1defamed by all countries of the world, although in the
 2meantime it is cried out that these things in Auschwitz,
 3and probably in Maidonek, Treblinka and in other so-
 4called extermination camps in the East, are all dummies".
 5That is a direct quote from your speech in Moers.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Are you quoting the speech to me? Are you going to
 7quote something from the exchange that follows? If so,
 8I cannot quite understand why we are looking at
 9yesterday's exchange rather than looking at the actual
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Because it was the easiest way to what you said in Moers.
12I have it in the file.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Of course, if you do it that way, we do not know exactly
14what was said in the actual speech.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We can track it down, I am sure.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Page 3, tab 5, Mr Irving.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Perhaps we can just wait to see what the question is and
18then it may not be worth the effort.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have put the question already. You made a statement not
20more than a couple of minutes ago that you never make
21reference to the non-existence of gas chambers except in
22relation to what you call the fake gas chamber at
23Auschwitz (i). That statement was false, was it not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     "The dummies were still standing in Auschwitz, these
25things in Auschwitz and probably in Maidonek, Treblinka
26and in the other so-called extermination camps". I think

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