Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 21 - 25 of 186

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    The figure of 70 is clearly wrong. That is clearly an
 1understatement. Far more than 70 men all told were
 2initiated in the mass killing of Jews by the Nazis.
 3Depending on what he means by that, regardless of what he
 4means by that, whether he is talking about just the
 5Auschwitz and the killings of the western European Jews or
 6if he is talking about the shootings on the East. I think
 7here he is talking about the first. He is talking only
 8about the killing of the European Jews.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Come on. He uses the word "gassing".
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. That is precisely what I am mentioning. That is why
11I am saying that. The gassing idea. Now, that part
12I think he is clearly commenting on what he now knows,
131952, after seven years of reading newspapers.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Oh really?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. But also he is involved -- if he read the Harold
16Turner letter, of course, from Serbia, then he would have
17been aware of gassings on a small scale in Serbia.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not in relation, Mr Irving, to a reference to Auschwitz as
19having been the source of the gassing because, if it was
20Auschwitz and disease there that gave rise to the idea, as
21General Wolff suggests, then the substance used for the
22gassing in consequence of the realization of that idea
23would have been prussic acid, would it not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, Zyklon-B.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you. Now I want to go back to this Milton thing.
26I am going to make a suggestion, you will deal it with it

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 1and then we can pass on to something else. I suggest to
 2you that, so far from, as it were, approaching this matter
 3as a serious historian would be and asking your audience
 4to be critical about eyewitness accounts, had you done
 5that, you would have paid attention to the serious
 6eyewitness accounts, so far from doing that, what you are
 7doing is feeding the anti-Semitism of your audience by
 8mocking the survivors and indeed the dead from the
10 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think that in that fragment we saw, and of course
11I do not know else is in the rest of the speech.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Assholes?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I think I am right in referring -- do you wish me to deal
14with that matter or the matter you just asked me about?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Finish your answer.
16 MR RAMPTON:     You finish the answer and I will draw your
17attention to that. Carry on. You finish your answer, I
18am sorry.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I think that the word "Jew" or the reference to "Jews" was
20not made in that fragment, and of course very many other
21people suffered the torment of Auschwitz. I do not know
22why you just single out the Jews for this particular
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see. Here we are talking about Polish gentiles, are
25we? This telephone box and the sedan chair and all that
26kind of thing?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I think the reference is to Poles, yes. Thank you for
 2reminding me.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can I ask you, because I am not quite clear,
 4Mr Irving? You say there was one eyewitness who told the
 5story about the mobile telephone box?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     There are sheaves of stories like this which came out in
 7various trials, right up to the to 1960s.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Focus on my question. I think you did say earlier on, in
 9answer to Mr Rampton, that there was one eyewitness who
10told the story of the telephone box?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, that is one of the stories that is told.
12 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes. I just want you to focus on that one eyewitness.
13Did you read it or hear it? How did you come to know
14about it?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     This was probably ten years ago and I have to say that,
16having read large numbers of documents at that time and
17having read very large numbers of documents more recently,
18I cannot say whether I saw the actual eyewitness
19interrogation, or whether it has become part of the law
20through being quoted in the Frankfurt trial by the defence
21or prosecution. It is certainly part of the folk law, if
22I can put it like that in a non-derogatory way,
23surrounding the Auschwitz killings, rather like the
24conveyor belt and the rest of it, that is known to
25historians on both sides of the divide. Yesterday
26evening, when I got home, I did put out an appeal to my

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 1world wide circle of historian friends to say, who can
 2provide me with the actual document.
 3 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Has anything come up as a result of that?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     By this morning, when I checked the e-mails, one person
 5came up with a reference to a one man portable low
 6temperature chamber that was being developed and that was
 7being spoken.
 8 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     That is obviously not it, is it?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Not yet, no.
10 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     You have not been able to pinpoint where this comes from?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     No, but obviously I have put wheels in motion to obtain
12the actual document, because of the value it would have
13for the court.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Sorry, Mr Rampton.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I just put these remarks of yours in context, if
16I may, Mr Irving. You say you were talking only about
17gentile Poles that escaped from Auschwitz. Let us read on
18on page 18.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     I did not say I was only talking about Poles. My actual
20remark was that I did not talk about Jews in that
21particular fragment. You then said Poles.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Shall we put the fragment in context, Mr Irving? On page
2316, the page before the one we were looking at, there is a
24lengthy reference at the bottom of the page to somebody
25call called Ely Wiesel. Is he a Polish gentile or is he a

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     I think he is a very well-known Holocaust propagandist, if
 2I can put it like that.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     That is not an answer to my question.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is he a gentile or is he a Jew?
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     He is Jewish, so far as I know.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Then let us have a look at page 18, from where the
 7video stopped. It is the top of page 18 after the note
 8that there was applause.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not have the transcript in front of me and perhaps
10I should.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry. Then you will need it.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, you should.
13 MR RAMPTON:     It is K3, tab 10, page 18.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Ely Wiesel, of course, is one of the people I call
15the spurious survivors of the Holocaust like Benjamin
16Wilkormierski and others, who have made a living out of
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sandwiched between that Jewish gentleman whom you
19characterize as a spurious survivor of the Holocaust and
20the next passage, which is also about spurious, in your
21view, survivors of the Holocaust, is all this stuff about
22the telephone box. So let us read page 18, shall we: "Let
23me give you an example of why I think it" -- that is to
24say this imaginary experience -- "is a psychiatric
25problem. Let me give you a little parable here, a
26biblical parable almost, because in Israel, now the

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