Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 181 - 185 of 186

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    --- it is better to keep them there, and the
 1highlighted in the K3 files.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Mr Irving will get the ----
 3 MS ROGERS:     Mr Irving will have exactly what your Lordship has.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Good.
 5 MS ROGERS:     Then going into an N file, this is a document which
 6Mr Irving had but I do not think your Lordship does have.
 7It is the Moscow chronology derived from the diaries and
 8letters. All of the documents -- there are extracts from
 9the documents -- all of the documents extracted are
10contained in the file, but for convenience it is a sort of
11chronology of the relevant events in Moscow. If that
12clipped at the front of N. Then hot of the press there is
13a transcript of part of the tape your Lordship saw, the
14Leuchter Congress. This is an extract of the speech by
15Ahmed Rami.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In French.
17 MS ROGERS:     In French and translated into German and what the
18translator has done, which has just been produced in the
19course of the afternoon, is to translate both the French
20and the German for reasons which will be become apparent
21on reading it. Can I suggest that goes into the Rami
22section which is RWE 2 tab 18? I hope that that completes
23the filing part of the exercise. Mr Berry has been most
24helpful in liaising on indexes. I would invite your
25Lordship, through Mr Berry, if there are any loose papers
26that do not have a home, to let us know and then we will

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 1produce indexes which are final versions of the files so
 2your Lordship will know what is in them.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think everything that matters has got a
 4home now.
 5 MS ROGERS:     I hope so, but if something turns up, then we will
 6file it.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Right.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     I wonder if your Lordship would want to take away
 9any of the tapes we have been showing in court? I am
10going to comment on them in closing the case, but whether
11your Lordship wants to have them in the meantime or simply
12we hand them over when we finish speaking because I
13obviously now (and I do not know that your Lordship has
14either) do not have any idea how long it will be before
15your Lordship is able to give judgment.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am hoping not tremendously long. It
17depends a little bit. The only one that perhaps one might
18need to look at it is the Halle video, but we will
19probably be doing that anyway in the context of any
20argument that may be going to take place on its
22 MR RAMPTON:     We do not want to burden your Lordship with them,
23so we will hang on to it in the meantime.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I am not terribly keen on looking
25through them.
26 MR RAMPTON:     No. There will be coming a transcript of

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 1Mr Irving's home made tape [German] which places him,
 2I think, in Germany after he has been banned. I think it
 3means "I am coming back" -- "I will be back".
 4 MR IRVING:     "I shall return".
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     "Come again". I do not know what you are
 6proposing to do about reducing any part of the final
 7speech into writing.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I am going to write the whole thing, at
 9least Miss Rogers and I are together, and I am going when
10the time comes obviously to give a copy to your Lordship
11and to Mr Irving. However, what I will not do, unless
12otherwise ordered to do, is give Mr Irving a copy in
13advance of his giving me a copy of what he is going to
14say. I am not saying he should write it for exchange. If
15there is not going to be an exchange, because he does not
16want an exchange because he is not going to write it out,
17then I will hang on to mine and I will give your Lordship
18a copy after I have read it.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I certainly would not ----
20 MR RAMPTON:     As I read it.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     -- order that there should anything other
22than exchange.
23 MR IRVING:     An exchange on the day perhaps?
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I am really driving at is this, that if
25it were to prove to be possible to exchange, even if it is
26only one day in advance of actually having the argument,

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 1I suspect we would save a lot of time because I could, you
 2know, spend a bit of the previous day having a look and
 3perhaps going to the bits that I would like more help on
 4as opposed to the other bits.
 5 MR IRVING:     In theory, yes, my Lord, but, of course, I would
 6then forfeit the advantage which comes to the person who
 7makes the closing speech which is answering specific
 8points that have been made.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, that is true. That is a perfectly fair
10point. Well, I will leave it this way, that if you could
11on Friday, first thing on Friday, agree to exchange, that
12would help me but if ----
13 MR RAMPTON:     I think that will be too soon.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not mean tomorrow, obviously, I mean
15Friday week.
16 MR RAMPTON:     No, no, I doubt it will be ready before the Monday
17morning anyway.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So be it.
19 MR RAMPTON:     If it is, so be it, but I doubt it will be. What
20I would like to do, since your Lordship said I think
21yesterday that Monday 13th was not a fixed day for
22delivery of the speeches, as it were, in court, what
23I would possibly like to do is to let your Lordship have
24it as soon as I can, and I hope it might be before the
25Monday morning but it might not be, and then come to court
26(which is what I did in another long case I finished

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 1recently) and answer questions, as it were, when your
 2Lordship has had a chance to read it. But in the
 3particular and peculiar circumstances of this case, there
 4will be quite a lot that I will want court time to read
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I think we want to regard Monday 13th as
 7being pretty much a fixed date when we are going to have
 9 MR IRVING:     I may have over misheard something there. Is the
10intention that the speeches should be read out and not
11just taken as read?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Oh, no, no, not read out at all, no. I think
13one has to play it by ear. I do not know what you are
14proposing to do. You do not have to write a word down.
15 MR IRVING:     No, I propose to write mine, yes.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I suspect then there may be odd points
17I want to pick up with you. I mean, do not feel the need
18to just read out your prepared final speech. That would,
19I think, be a complete waste of time.
20 MR IRVING:     Right, so it is a written submission rather than --
21that point I had not appreciated.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     But I do not know what you are going to say
23so I cannot really ----
24 MR IRVING:     That I am right and that they are wrong,

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