Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 171 - 175 of 186

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    As to the Halle tape, can I say two things?
 1important sense, unreliable, why then, your Lordship can
 2take that into account; not by way of whether or not it is
 3admissible, but whether or not it should be given weight.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not even sure about that. As
 5I understand the objection, it is that it has been so
 6heavily edited at various stages by various people that it
 7gives a wholly false impression of what actually happened.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     No. It has not been edited.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not saying I agree with that. I am
10saying that that I understand to be the objection, and if
11that be right then it might be that it will be knocked out
13 MR RAMPTON:     It might be.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not deciding it now obviously, but
15I think that that objection, if it is taken, ought to be
16disposed of one way or the other sooner rather than later.
17 MR RAMPTON:     If it is authentic and not a forgery and not, as
18it were, apt to mislead because of the way in which it has
19been edited, I mean mislead significantly, why then, it is
20admissible. It matters not what its provenance is. It
21matters not in the least what fraud Mr Irving may assert
22on the part of my solicitors -- I have to say I have
23absolutely no idea what he is talking about.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not going to deal with it now, but if
25I am told by a party that there is a video which has been
26put in about which he wants to make, in effect, a

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 1submission that it has become a bogus item of
 2evidence ----
 3 MR RAMPTON:     It is not bogus.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is effectively what I understand
 5Mr Irving to be saying.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Then I will deal with it when I am fully
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Quite. All I am saying at the moment is that
 9I think this ought to be dealt with before final speeches,
10because one normally deals with these sort of evidential
11questions at an earlier stage, which unfortunately means
12that we will have to have another session sometime. I do
13not really mind myself whether it is tomorrow or Monday.
14 MR IRVING:     Next week sometime would be preferable.
15 MR RAMPTON:     I would rather not tomorrow because I need time.
16I do not want to relay half understood messages.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then I think Monday morning is the right time
18to do it.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Monday morning might be all right, but first
20I need to know chapter and verse as to what Mr Irving's
21objections actually are, with supporting documentation.
22 MR IRVING:     I have put a clip together, but can I say that
23I expect it will be a conduct of the case matter, rather
24than a withdrawal of the video tape matter finally, if I
25can summarise it like that.
26 MR RAMPTON:     In that case, I really do not see the point of

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 1wasting his Lordship's time, and I have to say mine, at
 2this stage in the case. If it is a conduct of the case
 3question it can only every reflect on costs or damages.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not know. I am not sure what the
 5objections are.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Can I wait to see what Mr Irving actually says
 7because I have no idea what he is talking about at the
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I hope we can avoid having a further
10session in court ----
11 MR RAMPTON:     So do I.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- but one thing I do want to deal with, and
13if it can be dealt with now well and good, is the list of
14issues, because I think it is going to make a huge amount
15of difference to my task for a start, and I think it is
16possible going to simplify Mr Irving's task if we can
17agree or possibly improve on the list and the order in
18which the issues are taken. If you have not had a chance
19to look at it ----
20 MR RAMPTON:     I have not, I am afraid.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I wonder whether we can deal with that ----
22 MR RAMPTON:     I do not want to deal with it on the hoof, if your
23Lordship will permit me not to. This is a list very
24similar to that which I myself have composed. I really do
25want to be sure before I agree to anything that it is
26either not got something in that I do not read or has some

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 1things missing.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you obviously have not had a
 3chance to consider it?
 4 MR IRVING:     I have glanced at it and it seemed to be very
 5useful indeed, but I hope not it is not an obligatory
 6list, that I do not have to address all the matters that
 7are contained in it.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You do not have to address any of them, but
 9they are, it seems to me, all questions that I have to
10consider and, to an extent anyway, make a finding about.
11 MR IRVING:     Yes.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So if you do not deal with them ----
13 MR IRVING:     I hear those words and I understand the meaning of
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, do you want to say anything about
17 MR RAMPTON:     I would rather not say anything about them at the
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     When are you going to?
20 MR RAMPTON:     What I will do, if I gain permission, is to write
21any additions or subtractions that I having thought about
22it tomorrow probably, that I feel in my client's interests
23ought to be made any amendments and then I will simply
24send it to your Lordship and to Mr Irving.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I am again perfectly happy with that.
26Can you at the same time consider, and this obviously

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 1applies to Mr Irving as well, what I think is very
 2difficult in this case, which is the sequence in which it
 3is sensible to take the issues, because they all mesh into
 4one another and overlap and so on, and it is quite
 5important that the judgment ----
 6 MR IRVING:     As drafted by your Lordship?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I am trying to do is to make the
 8judgment flow, if that is the right word, or be
10 MR IRVING:     I am sure that your Lordship being an outsider will
11have synthesized the matters adequately and absolutely
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If you have any suggestions for improving it
14in that respect, then I would be grateful.
15 MR RAMPTON:     My Lord, I have some housekeeping that I am
16supposed to do. First, they are on the list, little
17sections for RWE 1 Staglich and Varela 8A and 8B. They
18are very small.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. That is that. What else?
20 MR RAMPTON:     I promised a response if I could get one from
21Professor van Pelt about those three labour camps that
22Mr Irving produced. I have the response and I would like
23to add it, if I may, as a supplement to Professor van
24Pelt's report. It contains some typographical errors but
25no matter.

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