Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 166 - 170 of 186

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not even have an index in this bundle.
 2 MR RAMPTON:     Can we come back on that?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Are we meeting tomorrow?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     I would rather not meet tomorrow if it is
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Then I need to know now, do I not?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Unless we are meeting on Monday or unless we send
 8a written note to your Lordship's Clerk just saying which
 9names we rely on. I certainly do not feel competent to
10make a decision about that now. I know I rely on Miss
11Gutmann, but beyond that I really cannot say. For
12example, it may be possible that some of these people make
13reference to people that I do not rely on as primary
14actors, in which case this Civil Evidence Act Notice can
15be ignored.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not entirely happy, if I may say so,
17with it being left in quite that way, because I do not
18think it is reasonably to expect me to plough through
19whatever it may be you are relying on. I am just wondering
20whether we are not going to have to have a further session
21in court before everybody goes away to write final
22speeches to deal with, at any rate, that.
23 MR RAMPTON:     I do not mind coming back tomorrow morning, if
24that would help.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it really is not, if I may say so,
26satisfactory just to be told, well, we rely on some of

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 1them, but we cannot really say which or which parts.
 2I think it has to be a bit more crystallised than that.
 3 MR RAMPTON:     I was suggesting might be able to do it on paper,
 4that is all.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, do you have any submissions to
 6make about this.
 7 MR IRVING:     I would be perfectly happy to receive a faxed list
 8of the names on which they intend to rely, if it would
 9prevent your Lordship from reading untoward material on
10which they are not intending to rely.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, quite. It is not just which witnesses
12but also I think some guidance as to which parts of the
13witness statements. I do not know how long they are.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Would your Lordship like us to take your C1 back
15and send you an edited version?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
17 MR RAMPTON:     Would that help?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, it would.
19 MR RAMPTON:     We will send it to you tomorrow.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Absolutely.
21 MR RAMPTON:     That was not my idea, needless to say.
22 MR IRVING:     The next question is when can we appoint the time
23for me to make the submissions I have to make on various
24other documents and bundles?
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. Mr Rampton, Mr Irving is asking when he
26can make the submissions he has, which are basically, as I

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 1understand it, really objections to certain parts of the
 3 MR IRVING:     Objections, but also I wish to put in bundle E if
 4I possibly can.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Put in what?
 6 MR IRVING:     Put in bundle E by way of submission.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Bundle E is in, without objection from me. The
 8question of what anybody makes of bundle E is a matter for
 9submission at the end of the case, final speeches.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think that is right, Mr Irving.
11 MR IRVING:     Yes.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We are really dispensing with the rules of
13evidence pretty much entirely in this case, which I think
14is actually right and inevitable, but that means that you
15have got into bundle E a whole lot of documents that in an
16ordinary case would not be evidence or admissible or even
17relevant some of them. So do not worry about that, but if
18you are objecting to any of the evidence that the
19Defendants have put in, then my own feeling is that that
20ought to be dealt with sooner rather than later, because
21if there are documents that are going to disappear from
22the case, well, then it is better we know they are going
23to disappear sooner rather later.
24 MR IRVING:     There are two documents I am objecting to, one is
25the Muller document of which I still have not been given
26adequate information on its surroundings, its family and

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 1where it comes from, and even if I am given the
 2information I am not sure how I can put that before your
 3Lordship, except by way of including my representations in
 4my closing speeches which is clearly unsatisfactory
 5because they will then have to answer to that.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is the first document.
 7 MR IRVING:     The second document which I object to in the manner
 8in which it was presented was the video tape of the Halle
 9speech over which we had serious altercations with the
10solicitors for the Defence, because it was withheld from
11me, most improperly and fraudulently withheld, which
12resulted in a hearing at a lower level, as a result of
13which the Second Defendant was ordered to provide an
14affidavit on her list, behind which I was not able to go.
15I was informed that she would be presented for
16cross-examination in the appropriate manner, which of
17course has now not happened. The object of that
18particular altercation was Halle video, and has now been
19presented to the court. I think that as they have
20misbehaved over that video, withholding it from me, it was
21then accidentally provided to me, it was returned with all
22my videos to me, that was the only way I became aware of
23the fact that this video consisted containing the real raw
24material ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are giving me a bit of the history and
26I do not think now is the time to go into it, because you

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 1need to get your thoughts together, but that is something
 2I think ought to be dealt with sooner rather than later,
 3because the way of the Defendants have put their case is
 4quite a significant aspect of ----
 5 MR IRVING:     It is significant when it goes to costs, my Lord.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- that compartment in the case.
 7 MR IRVING:     It is significant when it goes to costs.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not know about costs, but I do think you
 9ought to have the opportunity to make objections. I do
10not think that is a frivolous objection. I think the
11Muller document is in an altogether different category, if
12I may say so.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Can I take this these stages? The Muller document
14is in hand. Dr Longerich is in touch with the IFZ. As
15I have told your Lordship and Mr Irving at least once
16before, the reason we believe why Mr Irving could not get
17hold of it was that the file reference he gave, not
18through his fault, was wrong. We think that the document
19is both in Munich and in the criminal prosecution archive
20in the Ludwigsburg, and we will produce what we can find
21when we can find it.
22     As to the Halle tape, can I say two things?
23That is the best version we have. If Mr Irving, by way of
24argument or submission, is able to point to features of
25the video, or indeed to extraneous evidence which
26demonstrates that that tape is in some sense, some

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