Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 161 - 165 of 186

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. He had said it endless times before. It is exactly
 2the same thing. Mr Rampton, I had the advantage of having
 3read these Hitler speeches through and through for 35
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am sure you have.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     After a time, you know what he is going to say next. He
 7is that kind of person.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am surprised you remain sane, Mr Irving.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Thank you for the compliment.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     However, the fact is that the world war, which was what
11Hitler was ranting about in the Reichstag on 30th January
121939, for example, is now here. The day before.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     He had had the entire British Empire around his neck
14already, so it was not exactly a localised conflict, and
15the Soviet Union.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is highly significant to anybody, is it not, Mr Irving,
17who is in the least bit interested in an objective account
18of Hitler's responsibility for what happened to the Jews?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I can only repeat what I said earlier. There are
20two separate issues here: Whether I saw it and suppressed
21it and whether, if I saw it, I attached any importance to
22it, or would have attached any importance to it, and the
23answer to the second question is decisively no. I would
24not have attached any undue importance to that passage
25beyond what Hitler had said on countless occasions
26before. The answer to the first question I can say with

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 1the utmost emphasis is that I never saw this passage,
 2I did not read the passage, I did not get that far in the
 3glass plate, I had other things on the shopping list.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I make it clear, Mr Irving -- I am going to sit down
 5now -- that I do not accept either of those answers so
 6that you shall not be surprised when I say it when I close
 7this case. May I just take a moment to read my briefing,
 8my Lord?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, of course.
10 MR RAMPTON:     (After a pause). Thank you, Mr Irving.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Thank you.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes Mr Irving.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Unless your Lordship has any questions on that?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You have somewhat theoretical possibility of
15re-examining yourself if you want to add anything by way
16of evidence to what you have told Mr Rampton.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     I re-examine myself every night in the small hours to see
18what I have done wrong, and that is as far as I can get,
19unfortunately. By way of submission, I will certainly
20make certain propositions which, whether permitted or not,
21is the only way that I can effectively do it on the basis
22of documents.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I think I would find it quite helpful
24if you were able to perhaps fax the little clip of
25documents that I think you are probably going to produce
26in relation to the invention by the British, the PWE.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     The broadcasting. I have made a note of that. The
 2immediate question is when do we next come together?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you want to return to your usual place?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 (The witness withdrew).
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, there are a number of loose ends,
 7I think.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, I agree.
 9 MR IRVING:     Can I ask a technical question? Is Mr Rampton
10continuing to rely on any other names in the bundle?
11 MR RAMPTON:     What names?
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, what names?
13 MR IRVING:     Hancock and names like that.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Who?
15 MR IRVING:     Mr Hancock.
16 MR RAMPTON:     No, I have the answer I need about Mr Hancock. He
17is some kind of unattached roving rightist who thinks that
18all immigrants should be sent home. He is in the diary
19entry for what he is worth.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am taking it that the Defendants are relying
21on ----
22 MR RAMPTON:     The list.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- all the names on the list.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Although they may abandon some of those names
26in the light of your answer. I do not know whether they

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 1will or they will not, but they are entitled to rely on
 3 MR IRVING:     The question I am really asking, my Lord, is do
 4I need to make submissions about any of the other names
 5than those that I have been cross-examined on?
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     The ones that are not on the list you mean?
 7 MR IRVING:     The ones that I have not been cross-examined on.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not sure that there really in the end
 9there were any. There may have been one.
10 MR IRVING:     There were several. I am not going to mention
12 MR RAMPTON:     I have no intention of cross-examining Mr Irving
13on any of the names on the list in so far as the
14cross-examination was done for me by Professor Funke over
15the last two proceeding days. There is no point in my
16cross-examining and repeating just on Professor Funke has
17said. I rely on the evidence of Professor Funke, so far
18as those names are concerned. But, as I have said before,
19principally do I rely on Mr Irving's own words and
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am taking it that if the names on the list
22have not featured in the oral evidence at all, then they
23drop from the picture.
24 MR RAMPTON:     I would accept that.
25 MR IRVING:     Easily.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think you will find that only is one or

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 2 MR IRVING:     I think there are rather more than that.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am open to correction on that. The first
 4thing is, any evidence that you have not, as it were,
 5formally tendered, Mr Rampton, now I think probably is the
 6time it should be done. You have some more evidence?
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Not oral.
 9 MR RAMPTON:     I see, the Civil Evidence Act witnesses, yes
10I think we probably have.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is customary to inform the court what the
12evidence you rely on is. It is just that I do not
13actually really ----
14 MR RAMPTON:     I really do not want to ask Miss Rogers to stand
15here and read them out.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No. I want to know what there is, because
17I was slightly alarmed to get a bundle that I am not sure
18I previously had which I have kept.
19 MR RAMPTON:     Can we not make a snap statement about that now.
20To say I have not read it would be false, but to say
21I have not read it recently would be true. I cannot even
22remember what is in it. I do not have it. Lipstadt your
23Lordship can forget, not as a person but as a witness. As
24to the rest, frankly your Lordship can forget the
25Russians, I have got what I need from Mr Irving. As to
26the rest, they are all Americans I think.

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