Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 156 - 160 of 186

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    Quite simply did not, because of the very scarce resource,
 1that Miss Teplar made of our actual discoveries. We were
 2running out of time. I could not afford just to indulge
 3my curiosity. I had a shopping list to fill for the
 4Sunday Times. There were certain items we were trying to
 5obtain. I was reading these glass plates under extreme
 6conditions of awkwardness, namely using a 16 times little
 7thumbnail magnifier. I did not do badly under the
 8circumstances, and I agree I should be horse whipped for
 9having not seen that there but, even had I seen it,
10I would not have used it, I do not think.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You would have suppressed it anyway, would you? It does
12not seem to you significant?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not think so. I think the Schlegelberger document is
14of far greater significance than this. This is just the
15old Adolf Hitler gramophone record. I made that prophecy
16then and they do it ----
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sure. This is the prophecy coming to actuality, if I may
18borrow from the French for a moment. It is being
19realized. He prophesied to the Jews that, if they should
20once more bring about a world war, they would experience
21their own annihilation in doing so. This was no mere
22talk. This is on 12th December. The world war is there.
23The annihilation of Jewry must be the necessary
24consequence. Then why was the world war there,
25Mr Irving? Why was Hitler speaking to the Gauleiters on
2612th December? The reason is that he declared war on

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 1United States the day before.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right. He had picked up the gauntlet.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Do you tell me honestly that you did not think that
 4that speech by Adolf Hitler the day after the declaration
 5of war by Germany on the United States, making this into a
 6world war, was something you were not interested in
 7reading from beginning to end?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     This is the difficulty. If you are sitting in a library,
 9in your book lined cave, just picking volumes off a shelf
10with an index and a contents list, with the content of
11every entry in the diary, then this is made so easy for
12you. But, if you sitting in a Russian archive without
13even a microfilm reading machine, and you are looking at
14glass plates, and you are the first person to open those
15boxes in 55 years, you have not the faintest idea what
16lies ahead of you.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is the date, is it not, Mr Irving, on which in effect
18Hitler, having declared war on the United States and thus
19having brought about a world war, declares war on the
21 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     He says to them, does he not: "Right, mates, you brought
23about the first war, I told you that you would be for it
24if there was a second war. Now this is it. Face the
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Actually, the declaration of war was the next day.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What, the 13th?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     That is right. Hitler declared war on the United States
 3on 13th December, and the speech is on the 12th. The
 4diary entry is the 13th, but Goebbels also wrote it up one
 5day later. It is not any significance, that point,
 6just ----
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I rather think it may be. I had always thought that it
 8was 11th December. I do not know why I thought that.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Just pause a moment.
10 MR RAMPTON:     They think it is the 11th, too. They know a lot
11of history, far more than I do.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     I would not bet on it, but I think I am right.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think there is a reference, which caught my
14eye as I was looking through, in Goebbels diary to the
15United States. I cannot now find it.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Dr Longerich thinks it is the 11th, my Lord.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What would be conclusive, with all respect to
18him, is if Goebbels mentioned it as having happened before
19he wrote his diary entry.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Or if Mr Irving did, but I cannot find it in the
22 A. [Mr Irving]     It would be in my book Hitler's War, but of course that is
23just a pack of lies, is it not?
24 MR RAMPTON:     No. There are some things that are right. For
25example, the name on the cover, Hitler, and war.
26 A. [Mr Irving]     I think a sudden silence is going to fall among the----

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is quite an important point so, if your Lordship does
 2not mind, we will find out, on the best authority, when it
 3was declared.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I think it is a "Who wants to be a millionaire" question,
 5is it not?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Not really, I think.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Page 15 of Goebbels diary entry?
 8 MR RAMPTON:     Page 15 in this Russian version, my Lord?
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I am not sure if it actually does
10answer the question, but it is coming close.
11 MR RAMPTON:     Perhaps we can bypass the good Dr Goebbels, my
12Lord, because this is Professor Irving writing his Goring
13book in 1989ish, I think, page 337. "It is probably only
14now that he", that is probably Hitler, might be Goring,
15"learned that the Japanese had attacked Pearl Harbour.
16At the Reichstag session on December 11th Hitler declared
17war on the United States".
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I found it at the same time, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, who is right? You or you?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     This time you are right.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     OK, the 11th.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Luckily I am not a betting man.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Lucky you have not lost a million quid, yet.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I would have phoned a friend if I had one.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, this was a very important speech, was it not?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     No.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The day after the declaration of war on the United States?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     It was the usual Adolf Hitler pep talk. He did not often
 3see the Gauleiters. He did not like the Gauleiters. He
 4said to Martin Bormann after Rudolf Hess went, "Keep the
 5Gauleiters off my back".
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What he said was: "You Jews, I threatened you, I promised
 7you, you have got it coming to you, and now it is here
 8because the world war has begun".
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Do you want to see his actual speech?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. I would like you to look at what Goebbels reports
11that he said.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     That is what I am asking.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is at the bottom of page 50 of the Moscow microfiche.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     That is 22 pages beyond how far I got.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is not. It is 12 pages. I must say -- I have to say,
16Mr Irving -- pretty weedy little pages too, narrow and
17short. Bezuglich der Judenfrager ist der Fuhrer. It is
18the last line on page 50. It goes through, probably the
19bit about the Jews, only as far as page 51, because he
20starts something new on the bottom of page 51. Yes, here
21we are. This is going to be the German India in the
22future in the East. So the little bit about the Jews is
23really mostly on page 51. If you read it to yourself ----
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I have read it.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I repeat my question. This is a statement that the threat
26will now be fulfilled, is it not.

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