Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 151 - 155 of 186

<< 1-5186 >>
    They seem to have got on to this plate, plate 2, and I do
 1not know whether plate 2 ends on 13th December. I think
 2not, because the Russians tell us that the second plate is
 3partly the 13th and partly the 14th, but we see, of the
 413th, they got a total of 59 minus 18, which is 41 pages,
 5and the whole of what you transcribed came from plate 2,
 6not from plate 1, as you would have us believe.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     I am anxious not to put my foot in it by saying something
 8ill considered. The final page in the clip appears to be
 9the end of the day's entry, does it not?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It might be that it is, and it may be that there are some
11more pages in the plate relating to 14th December. It
12might be, it might not be, it might be the end of the
13plate, I have no idea. I suspect it is not the end of the
14plate because of what the Russians have just told us.
15However, the fact is that, starting on page 26, that is
16say, roughly speaking, eight pages into plate 2, you then
17succeed in transcribing your way all the way through in
18bits and pieces with some left out, to page 38. Yes?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Right. I am sorry. I am getting the picture now.
20Obviously, you have thrown this at me just now as I am
21trying to get the overall picture. You know this better
22than I do. Which pages of the large type face have
23I actually transcribed?
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No. They are not continuous.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, I know that.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You start on page 26, you continue on page 27. There is

.   P-151

 1then a gap starting at the bottom two lines of 27, and
 2going through to the end of the first three lines on page
 330. You then start again at "Ich habe noch gelegenheit".
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     And there is nothing on those pages that I have taken out
 5that you are worried about?
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, nothing at all. This is not what I am driving at.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     All right. I think this is the way to do it.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You then transcribe the whole of page 31.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The whole of page 32, the whole of page 33 and the first
11three lines of page 34.
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You then jump to page 38, where you transcribe all but the
14last two lines of the large paragraph on that page.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     In the part that has been jumped there is there anything
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, nothing significant.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     All right, so that is unimportant.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not know whether there is or there is not. I am not
20interested in that.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the way to do it, so I know what you are getting
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The fact is you managed to get to page 38 of a diary entry
26which, considering its date, is recording the speech to

.   P-152

 1the Gauleiters and I think the Reichskommissars and,
 2considering its date, is a very important entry.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, if one had known that was there. But you have to
 4remember, I am looking at these glass plates through
 5something the size of my little finger nail like this all
 6day long, dictating on to a tape.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you seriously telling me that you resisted the
 8temptation to read this important speech of the Fuhrer
 9from end to end, start to finish?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     There was a temptation to read the entire 50,000 pages,
11this is true.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Never mind the 50,000 glass pages.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     There is a limitation. I knew I was only going to be in
14Moscow for a few days before I flew back to England.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are, or purport to be, an historian with a particular
16interest in Adolf Hitler. Adolf Hitler makes a important
17speech on 12th December 1941, which is recorded by his
18chum Joseph Goebbels.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are in the middle of this important speech. Are you
21telling me that your ordinary curiosity would not have
22compelled you to read on to the end of this speech?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     I have to say that, even had I seen it, and this is an
24entirely different question, I would not have attached any
25importance to it, because it is the old Adolf Hitler
26gramophone record again. But the question you are asking

.   P-153

 1is why I did not read ahead and see that kind of thing was
 2there, and the answer is quite simply I did not, so I did
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am suggesting that you did. It is to be found at the
 5bottom of page 50, the relevant passage.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     Bezuglich der Judenfrage ist der Fuhrer
 7enschlossen, reinen tisch zu machen.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Can you me where I stopped reading?
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You stopped reading eleven pages earlier, bottom of page
1038. Actually, to be fair, in lines it is probably 12
12 A. [Mr Irving]     So it was not a question of kind of my eye not running
13over on to the next page. I would have had to read on
14twelve pages on the glass plate, and then said to myself,
15hey, this is important, but I am afraid to say I would not
16have, for the simple reason that none of the other people
17present at that Gauleiter meeting, none of the other
18Gauleiters, and there were 48 of them, bothered to write
19anything about this particular speech being any different
20from the others.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Were you aware at this date when you were examining these
22plates, Mr Irving, what to you at one time at least was
23passionately important, that is to say, what you believed
24to be the signal ending the Final Solution, Himmler's
25telephone call to Heydrich on 30th November of this year,
26that is to say 12 years before the event which this diary

.   P-154

 1entry records?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     12 days?
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     12 days. What did I say? 12 years?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is obviously not 12 years, is it? 12 days. That is
 6elephantine, Mr Irving, but we will not worry about that.
 7You knew well about that diary entry, did you not?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I knew about a lot of documents, yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, no. This is one of your cherished icons, or it was
10until it was shattered.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Said to have been, yes, but I do not agree that it was.
12It was one of a long series of documents.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This was Hitler ordering a final end to any shooting of
14Jews for ever, or killing of Jews for ever. If you look
15at the introduction to the 1977 edition of Hitler's War,
16we can all see that.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Are you really telling me that a speech made 12 days after
19that crucially important event in your mind, you come upon
20a Hitler speech at the meeting with the Gauleiters and the
21Reichskommissars, and you do not read the whole of the
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Quite simply did not, because of the very scarce resource,
24namely time. The archive opened and closed at set hours.
25I was only going to be in Moscow for two more days.
26I think this is already probably the last page of notes

.   P-155

<< 1-5186 >>