Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 146 - 150 of 186

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    Your account of the omission of that may be
 1I think, if I may summarize this and you will correct me
 2if am wrong, that you went to Moscow to look at the
 3Goebbels diaries with a specific commission from the
 4Sunday Times.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     A shopping list, yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Which consisted of, or which included, the instruction,
 7direction or request to look for material on Pearl
 8Harbour? Is that right?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Have I got it right so far?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     When you got there, you found the glass plates on which
13the diaries were recorded so voluminous or so crowded that
14you stopped four lines into the second of the glass plates
15for this date. Do you remember that? Would you like to
16turn to tab 2, which I think are some Irving documents,
17are they not?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry?
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The little clip, the file you have been given.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, tab 2. The notes taken by my assistant on our
21progress as we waded through the glass plates.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. The first page in that is headed "box 1", is it not?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Whether that means the big filing box or the little box of
25glass plates, I cannot say.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have absolutely no idea. I am afraid I was not there.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     It is a big filing box. I can see that because on box two
 2she puts in the Russian designation.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Could you turn to page 9 please? It is the original 09 at
 4the bottom.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Under No. 38 at the top of the page we see the list of
 7plates that you read, or part read, for December 1941, do
 8we not?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     The plates that we found, yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Whatever. Lesen is German for read, is it not?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Read or read, oddly enough.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Read. It must be read. 10th December, read, 11th to 12th
13December, read, Pearl Harbour.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Read with gelesen.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All right. 13th December, lesen, whatever it means.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     13/14 December, 41, bis vier zeile gelesen?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Read to the fourth line yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, to the fourth line. Now please turn over some
20pages. There is a lot in here that I do not need.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I am astonished that she was so meticulous in what she
22wrote down.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am about to suggest to you that she actually might have
24made a significant mistake.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Ah.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     At tab 5 of this little file you will see a document in

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 1Russian dated 23rd February of this year. If you want to
 2turn over, we have attempted the translation.
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I was just about to get my O-level Russian to work.
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Forget your O-level Russian unless you are going to
 5grumble about the translation. It comes from the Federal
 6Archives Services of Russia and Moscow and it is written
 7to my solicitors Mishcon de Reya in London. It says,
 8"Dear Sirs, further to your letter we are sending to you
 9photocopies Goebbels diary pages for 13th December 1941.
10The photocopies are taken from two separate glass
11plates". So far you are not falling out with the
12Russians, I think, are you, Mr Irving?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     I am happy to accept this, yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The second plate starts from page 18.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     I see what they mean.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     We turn over the page to tab 6 of this little file and we
17find what it is that the Russians have sent us.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Rampton]     If you turn through the pages, the numbers are at the
20top. You find that the first plate ends. Well, let us
21look at the first page. The first page has on it 13th
22December 1941.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That does not mean that that plate starts on the 13th
25December 1941, does it?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     No, it does not.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Right. So, when the Russians say that plate 1 ends at
 2page 17 of this 13th December entry, which you can see,
 3they are probably right, are they not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now I will direct you to where on plate 2, rather far past
 6line 4 I fear, your clip that you gave us as representing
 7what you transcribed begins. Page 26, please. If you
 8want to compare it with what you gave us as being your --
 9we had better do it in an orderly way. Your transcription
10is at tab 4, and it begins "Mittags habe ich eine
11Unterredung mit dem Fuhrer".
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So we can see that that passage starts -- it is the first
14part of your transcription for the 13th and it starts on
15page 26, I think, of plate 2, I ask you to note, of the
16series for this date. I can tell you, because I have
17marked it all the way through, you run out in the sections
18you say you transcribed on page 38. Is that right? Yes,
19it is, I think. You end with the passage "Das wir im
20Osten nicht weitergekommen sind, als wir jetzt stehen",
21and we find that on page 38 of plate 2, do we not?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     That is when I run out.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You end "nach Schutzproblem aber".
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Tab 4 is what? Transcribed microfiche
26material done by Mr Irving in Moscow?

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. So point 1, Mr Irving, the story that all
 2but four lines of your transcription came from plate 1 is
 3just rubbish, is it not?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I have just done a little bit of a calculation.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It all comes from plate 2, does it not?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Mr Rampton, if you are saying that plate 2 starts on page
 718 ----
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Do you know how many images there were per plate?
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I have no idea.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Ah.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I can count the pages, Mr Irving. I do not need images.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     It was either 25 ----
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     35. It does not matter.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     It does, because I think that you will find that the
16remaining images you got here probably come from yet a
17third plate.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Because you could not have had more than a certain number
20of images. Unfortunately, unless your Lordship has in
21front of you the actual colour photograph I gave you what
22the plates look like, I think those were the handwritten
23pages. I am sorry, that would not apply. That is
24handwritten pages and not the typed pages. The typed
25pages have more to a page than the handwritten images.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     

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