Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 141 - 145 of 186

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    To this I have to say two things. The first thing, not in
 1interview. She did not get to see Mrs Schroeder.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What, you mean you cannot interview somebody by telephone?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Not in my book. Secondly, I have to confess that even
 4after receiving that letter from the opposing solicitors
 5in the other action, I did not look into the
 6correspondence and discovery files for reasons which are
 7probably evident for you. To do so would have taken me
 8probably 20 or 30 minutes to find the file and look up the
 9letter, and at present I am under very great time
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry, I am not following that at all.
12On 10th February 2000, you were sent a letter which
13specifically directed you to the document. It would not
14have taken you a second to find it.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, my files are not in any very great shape at
16present. They are in great shape for this action, but
17they are not in great shape for an action which has not
18yet been set down even. And to have looked and found the
19Sereny discovery and to have found this particular
20document -- all I can say is that I am stating here, I am
21asserting here, that I did not look up this document and,
22even having looked it up, it has not altered my position
23because I knew perfectly well ----
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     But I am sorry, Mr Irving, on 4th January 2000 you
25specifically requested documents relating to what Frau
26Schroeder had said.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Very well. In preparation of this case, I have gone
 2through our entire discovery for the action against
 3Penguin Books which is the current case, which is what
 4this number is on the top right-hand corner of the Sunday
 5Times letter, 545. When I took this letter out, my eye
 6lit on the fact on paragraph 2 that there were quite
 7clearly interesting items that Sereny had not disclosed to
 8me, as she should have. I wrote a routine letter to the
 9solicitors for the opponents in that action, saying, "Oh,
10by the way, I note you have not given discovery of those
11documents, please now do so", which is a perfectly
12reasonable act. They then wrote back that letter. But
13I already knew from Christa Schroeder that she never
14interviewed Miss Sereny for personal reasons.
15 MR RAMPTON:     But she did not make it up, did she, Mr Irving?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     She did not make what up? The statement?
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The assertion that Hitler probably knew what was going on
18because he had these four hours, frequently had these four
19hours conversations closeted with his friend, Heinrich
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Now, that is not the question you asked me, is it, or the
22question which his Lordship asked me?
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Have a look at it again if you want to.
25 MR RAMPTON:     "Did she make it up?" Answer; "Yes".
26 A. [Mr Irving]     "Is it your case that there is not any record of Gita

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 1Sereny's interview with Christa Schroder?" That was the
 2first question to which the answer was quite correctly,
 3"Yes", "And that she is, in fact, making the whole thing
 4up?" in other words, the interview, answer: "Yes". And
 5I take issue with the way you put her response. She did
 6not say she considered it probable that Hitler knew. She
 7said she considered it improbable that Hitler did not know
 8or that he knew nothing, rather, was the exact language.
 9That is not quite the same as you have said. I do not
10want to split hairs, but let us stick to the actual
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Would you like to withdraw the allegation of little
13invention you made against Miss Sereny in this court not
14very long ago?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I would not. Miss Sereny has stated that she
16conducted interviews with a number of Hitler's staff, who
17disavowed what I had reported of my very lengthy
18interviews with the same people. It is a matter of
19professional pride that I establish that what I wrote was
20true on the basis of proper interviews, not conducted over
21a snatched telephone conversation. Proper interviews.
22You have of course seen the very complete and proper
23records I took of those interviews, and I was perfectly
24satisfied from my knowledge of these people and what they
25told me that they had not granted her interview.
26Certainly Krista Schroeder had not and, when it was

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 1suggested in this court that she had, I knew perfectly
 2well that she had not, and it now turns out I was right.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The last item on my agenda for today, Mr Irving, is the
 4Goebbels diaries, the entry for 13th December 1941, what
 5Adolf Hitler said to the Gauleiters and others on 12th
 6December 1941.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     And my knowledge of what was in them, presumably.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Absolutely. Precisely that. My Lord, this is on page 337
 9and 338 of Professor Evans' report. I invite reference to
10that because the English is there.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sorry to be tedious about this but where
12should I put the little clip that has just been handed in?
13 MS ROGERS:     J2, which is now in an overspill marked J2 to 3.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Rather than being an overspill marked J2 to
153, it is actually going to be J3.
16 MS ROGERS:     I am very happy with that, and I think we are up to
1717 or 18.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have run out of tabs.
19 MR RAMPTON:     May Mr Irving and his Lordship have the Goebbels
20clip and Mr Irving should also have a copy of Professor
21Evans' report.
22 A. [Mr Irving]     In that case I had better clear a large space on my desk.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Please turn to page 337. On page 337 in paragraph
248 Professor Evans writes this: "On 12th December 1941,
25less than one month after the publication of the article
26in Das Reich, Hitler spoke about the Jews in front of the

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 1Gauleiters (noted down by Goebbels): 'With reference to
 2the Jewish question", Bezuglich der Judenfrage, "the
 3Fuhrer is determined to clear the decks". The actual
 4German is reinen Tisch zu machen, which might be better
 5translated as make a clean sweep. "He prophesied to the
 6Jews that if they should once more bring about a world
 7war, they would experience their own annihilation in doing
 8so. That was no mere talk. The world war is there, the
 9annihilation of Jewry must be the necessary consequence.
10The question is to be considered without any
11sentimentality. We are not there to have sympathy with
12the Jews, only sympathy with our German people".
13     In paragraph 9 on page 338, writes Professor
14Evans: "Here Hitler mirrored directly Goebbels's
15statements from the article in Das Reich", which I think
16was published in November of that year, 16th I think?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     November 16, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "While Irving does cite this speech of 12th December 1941
19by Hitler in Goebbels, he is careful to omit any mention
20at all of this key passage because it shows that Hitler
21was as determined to act brutally against the Jews as
22Goebbels was".
23     Your account of the omission of that may be
24thought crucially important passage from the Goebbels
25diaries from your book on Goebbels, or indeed from
26anything else that you have written so far as I know, is

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