Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 136 - 140 of 186

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    So Mr Irving, your story is now this, is it not,
 1if this story was an invention, it was the BBC, the wicked
 2journalists and their informants who invented it, it was
 3not the British Government? Is that right?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I think at all material times the BBC was in arm with the
 5British Government and the Ministry of Information. It
 6certainly did not operate in a kind of independent way.
 7I think it would be useful if I do draw up a schedule of
 8references, including whether it specifically referred to
 9gassing or not and the dates. This will...
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am moving to another topic now, my penultimate topic,
11Mr Irving, you will be pleased to hear. The first page in
12this clip should be a page from the transcript in this
13trial on day 23, Monday, 21st February 2000, is it?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you see what his Lordship was asking you on page 140?
16You were cross-examining.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Gita Sereny, yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You were cross-examining Professor Evans about a passage
19in his report which asserted that you had falsely accused
20Gita Sereny, or having ignored Gita Sereny's assertion
21that Christa Schroeder had said that Hitler knew about the
22Holocaust. I am paraphrasing.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Justice Gray at line 18 on page 140 asks you this: "Is
25it your case that there is not any record, whether tapes,
26notes or anything, of Gita Sereny's interview with Christa

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 1Schroder and she is, in fact, making the whole thing up?"
 2Mr Irving, "Yes". Is that still your position?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is that still your position that Gita Sereny made the
 5whole thing up?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     On the basis of what I have seen in her discovery in the
 7other action, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now we are going ----
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     You are familiar with the fact that I requested to see all
10her-- I had discovery from her.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     The date of this exchange between his Lordship and you is
12Monday, 21st February 2000.
13 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am now going to show you some papers from your case
15against Gita Sereny and whichever newspaper it is,
16I forget, the Observer, I think. The second page in this
17little clip is a letter from you to the solicitors for
18those Defendants ----
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- Lovell White Durrant, dated 4th January 2000. You say
21this: "I note from my discovery item No. 545 that your
22client, Sereny, took notes of her conversations with
23Gunsche, von Welloff and Schultzer and that Frau Schroeder
24also wrote to her" -- notice those words, please. "These
25items appear to be missing from your client's discovery
26and I would request that" ----

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     "She".
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- "you give disclosure" or "she" it might be "give
 3disclosure of these within a reasonable amount of time".
 4I do not know what the second document is.
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     To which I received no reply.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I see. 545 is what you enclose with your letter.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a letter from the Associate Managing Editor of the
 9Sunday Times dated 13th October 1997 to you: "Dear
10Mr Irving, thank you for your letter. With regard to the
11first point, you will be interested to see the enclosed
12letter which appeared in the Sunday Times two weeks after
13publication of the original article. It indicates that a
14misunderstanding on this point has already been publicly
15acknowledged and corrected. With regard to the second
16point, there is no such necessity. We have records of
17Gita Sereny's conversations with Walter Gunsche, Colonel
18von Welloff and Richard Shultzer supporting what was said
19in our article. Christa Schroeder's comments on the
20subject of Hitler and the extermination of the Jews were
21conveyed to Miss Sereny in a letter. Under the
22circumstances, therefore, I think you will agree that
23there is no basis for the complaints made in your letter".
24     In response to your letter to them, Lovells
25replied on 27th January: "Thank you for your letter dated
264th January 2000. We have raised your request with

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 1Miss Sereny and will revert to you again in this
 2connection once we have received her response. We take
 3the opportunity to note that we have not", and so on and
 4so forth. That is something else.
 5     Then they write again on 10th February, this is
 6but 11 days before you gave your evidence in this court.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "We write further to our letter dated 27th January 2000,
 9having now discussed your request with Miss Sereny. The
10documents which you seek have already been disclosed.
11There were no notes in Miss Sereny's conversations was
12Gunsche, von Welloff and Schultzer, only tape recordings.
13These have been disclosed to you. The letter to
14Miss Sereny from Frau Schroeder was disclosed as item 2.57
15in schedule 1 part 1 of the same list". The rest is
17     The last page, please, here is the letter,
18please tell me what the penultimate paragraph says. The
19first of the two letters printed on this page is from Frau
20Schroeder herself, is it not?
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. "Dear Miss Sereny, I regret that for health reasons
22I have not been able to receive you", for an interview, in
23other words. So there was no interview.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Carry on.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     "As far as the telephone conversation that you sketched of
261976 is concerned, what you write about, what you mention

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 1about Himmler in connection with me appears, you appear to
 2have fallen victim of having heard, misheard something.
 3Himmler has not", underlined "not", "spoken with me",
 4underlined "with me", "in this manner. I have tried to
 5arrange an interview between you and his, Himmler's,
 6daughter, but I have unfortunately failed for which
 7I request that you leave out this passage. As far as the
 8Judenfrager is concerned: I consider it improbable or
 9unlikely that Hitler did not know -- that Hitler knew
10nothing. He had frequent conversations with Himmler which
11took place as tete a tete. More than that,
12I unfortunately cannot tell you as I am ignorant of the
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now 10 days after being reminded of that letter because it
15had been in the discovery originally according to
16Lovells ----
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- his Lordship asked you and I repeat: "Is it your case
19that there is not any record, whether tapes, notes or
20anything, of Gita Sereny's interview with Christa
21Schroeder and she is, in fact, making the whole thing up?"
22Answer by Mr Irving: "Yes". A false and a knowingly
23false answer, is it not, Mr Irving?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     To this I have to say two things. The first thing, not in
25any order of priority, is that, as is evident from the
26correspondence which I just read out, there was no

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