Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 131 - 135 of 186

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    What it says is "Declaration on German crimes in Poland.
 1punish the instigators and actual perpetrators of these
 2crimes. It further declares that so long as such
 3atrocities continue to be committed by the representatives
 4and in the name of Germany, they must be taken into
 5account against the time of the final settlement with
 6Germany. Meanwhile, the war against Germany will be
 7prosecuted with the utmost vigour until the barbarous
 8Hitler itinerary has been finally overthrown". That is an
 9official United States press release, is it not?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you notice something about that press release,
12Mr Irving?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     That is a strange question.
14 Q. [Mr Rampton]     There is no reference to gassing or gas chambers.
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So, on the advice, no doubt of the Department of State in
17the United States and of the Foreign Office in Great
18Britain, the reference to gas chambers in the draft has
19been removed?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, because it was -- there was no adequate evidence.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, the Allies and, in particular, the British PWE
22decided against using, unhappily perhaps, but they decided
23against using the gas chamber story as propaganda,
24correct, am I not?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     This is not a propaganda declaration; this is a warning to
26the German leaders, to the Italian leaders, that

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 1retribution is on its way to them. It is nothing to do
 2with propaganda. Propaganda was what we broadcast of
 3which there is any amount of evidence.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I would like to see it because at the
 5moment I do not have any no evidence at all.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     I have great confidence on this score.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     I have been given Claimant file F, my Lord, on
 8page 61 your Lordship will find it, I hope.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think we have had this before. F became
10something else.
11 MR RAMPTON:     You should have a separate file F, my Lord, a
12small file F. It had originally, I think, a two-page
13index and the document in question is page 62. I think
14Mr Irving should have it too, please.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think this what I had in mind.
16 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. This is the so-called Ringelbulm diary. It
17has, I am afraid, no year date on it. But I will read it
18just the same because it is rather interesting. But I do
19think Mr Irving should have it. Could somebody please
20find Mr Irving a file F? I hope, Mr Irving, that your
21index page, your contents page, 62, there are two pages
22from this book?
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     294, 295, is that right?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we look at 295 which is on the right-hand side in my

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 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     "Friday, June 26th has been a great day for OS", what is
 4"OS", see introduction", well, that is hopeless. I have
 5not got the introduction. What is "OS", Mr Irving?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     No idea.
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     OK. "This morning the English radio broadcast about the
 8fate of Polish Jewry. They told about everything we know
 9so well, about ... (reading to the words)... Lemburg and
10Chelmno, and so forth. For long months we had been
11suffering because the world was deaf and dumb to our
12unparalleled tragedy. We complained about Polish public
13opinion, about the liaison men in contact with the Polish
14government in exile. Why were they not reporting to the
15world the story of the slaughter of Polish Jewry? We
16accused the Polish liaison men of deliberately keeping our
17tragedy quiet so that their tragedy might not be thrown
18into the shade. But now it seems that all our
19interventions have finally achieved their purpose. There
20have been regular broadcasts over the English radio the
21last few weeks treating of the cruelties perpetrated on
22the Polish Jews, Belzec and the like. Today there was a
23broadcast summarizing the situation. 700,000, the number
24of Jews killed in Poland was mentioned. At the same time
25the broadcast avowed revenge, a final accounting, for all
26these deeds of violence".

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 1     Which year, Friday June 26th, Mr Irving?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     1942.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     1942. Do you see anything in there about gas chambers?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     No.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Am I right that the Polish Government in exile at the
 6instance, no doubt, of people in Poland had been, as it
 7were, hacking at the Allies to pay attention to these
 8stories for some considerable time?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     These stories were not invented by the British Government,
11were they?
12 A. [Mr Irving]     Inasmuch as when the British Government put them out, they
13had no firm evidence that they were true and they later
14summarized that they had no such evidence, they were.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now I think we know where we are.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, on the broadcasts in their clip there is a number
17of docments which I did not actually rely on when
18I cross-examined Mr Klemperer. When we next come
19together, I will produce a schedule of broadcasts and what
20they contained in this respect, I think, as far as I can.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Is there anything else in this clip at the
22moment that ----
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I think it would take up too much of the court's
24time to read the 10 or 15 pages.
25 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I am not too bothered about that. I do not think it would
26take very long. Do you rely on the ----

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     But what I am really saying is ----
 2 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Do you rely on the diaries of Klemperer? I am sorry,
 3Mr Rampton, it is just that once one is on this topic, one
 4really needs to ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, I do not really want to do it in a hurried manner
 6and if I do it in a slow manner, then your Lordship will
 7get impatient. What I am really saying is that we do not
 8want to go back and have a look at the files to see what
 9else I can dredge up.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have got 64. I am just looking for
11references to a broadcast. Page 64 is Klemperer.
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Page 67, I think. Could you just read the top of page 67,
13Mr Irving?
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not have those numbers on this.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sorry, page 442 of whatever it is.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     "Millions of German people did, in fact, listen
17attentively and regularly to German language BBC
18broadcasts, even though it was illegal for them to do so.
19Moreover, the BBC German service took considerable pains
20to convey accurate and believable information about the
21annihilation of the Jews. These efforts were particularly
22noteworthy considering that they were frowned on by the
23British Foreign Office which did not regard Jewish
24persecution as an efficacious theme for propagandists to
25take advantage".
26 MR RAMPTON:     

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