Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 126 - 130 of 186

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    And that was in January 1942. And then there is another
 1reference in June 1942 in the ----
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can we just take this in stages? Thank you
 3very much, Miss Rogers. Thomas Mann, he is the novelist?
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     He was working for the American propaganda agencies.
 5 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     How is that evidence that the British Intelligence Service
 6were making use of this information about what was going
 7on? He does not have a connection with the British
 8Intelligence Service, does he?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Only in as far as the Allied Intelligence Operations of
10the Office of War Information in Britain and the British
11Ministry of Information were co-ordinated, but it is as
12tenuous as that. In other words, I cannot produce the
13actual missing links there.
14 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     In relation to him or generally?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     In relation to linking Thomas Mann's broadcast with what
16happened in No. 10 Downing Street.
17 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     What do we next have?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     June 1942, would that be the Ringelbulm diary? I
19am saying all this from memory, of course.
20 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     I appreciate that.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not have the documents in front of me.
22 Q. [Mr Justice Gray]     Yes, you do mention that. Ringelbulm, I have no
23recollection of him at all.
24 MR RAMPTON:     Who is Ringelbulm?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I think he is living in one of the ghettos, either in
26Warsaw or somewhere listening, obviously very hopefully,

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 1to BBC broadcasts.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, it does not say "BBC". It says "broadcasts" about the
 3extermination of Jews with poison gas.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know who else would be broadcasting about the
 5extermination of Jews, apart from the Allies.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You see, Mr Irving, I am puzzled by this. What evidence
 7do you have that these stories, I would say factual
 8accounts, of what was happening, maybe not in '41, but
 9certainly in '42 to '43, emanated from the propaganda arm
10of the British Government? How do you know that these
11people did not pick it up from the Poles or from
12Mr Riegner?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Or from the Americans.
14 MR RAMPTON:     Or from the Americans?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Well, the sources that I quoted refer specifically to
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     To what?
18 A. [Mr Irving]     They refer specifically to broadcasts and listening in to
19enemy broadcasts.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Sure, of course, but a journalist, even in those days, a
21self-respecting journalist, would use material supplied to
22him if it seemed to him to be reliable, would he not?
23What on earth connection do you see in all of this with
24the PWE?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Because the PWE was controlling the black propaganda from
26Britain at this time. This was Robert Bruce Lockhart and

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 1Richard Crossman.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, Mr Irving ----
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     But I mean ----
 4 Q. [Mr Rampton]     --- what you are telling us is not ----
 5 A. [Mr Irving]     --- I am at a disadvantage here because I do not have the
 6diaries in front me and I am not able to look for the
 7collateral material which I would clearly do if I knew
 8I was going to be cross-examined on this.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would like to see it.
10 MR RAMPTON:     So would I.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     I have made a note of it and I am going to produce another
13 MR RAMPTON:     We do not need it now. This can lie in wait for
14next week or the week after. But would you agree with me
15on the basis of the original documentation which we have
16seen, there is (a) evidence that the story was a real
17story, whether a true story or not, but a real story and
18that it did not originate with the British?
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but it is of a low grade evidence.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is as may be.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is there also evidence before us that on account of what
23the British then saw as its low grade quality, they
24decided not to use it?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you.

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     But they did not find it, of course, in the high grade
 2sources where they would have expected to find it like the
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton, before you leave this, in view of
 5what Mr Irving said about broadcasts, could you invite
 6Mr Irving to look at page 15 in this same tab, tab 6?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Is this the actual declaration as released, my Lord?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it is not for me to say.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Am I looking at the right document?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not for me to say.
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, is it the declaration headed "Confidential Future
12Release" or?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not know what it is, but it seemed to me
16it might be relevant.
17 MR RAMPTON:     I do not have the same pagination as your
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     In my version of this it is the last page.
20 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, is this, Mr Irving, 19 it is in my version,
2115 in yours. Is this a United States document?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, Department of State.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is dated August 28th 1943?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It says, well, I will read it: "Confidential release for
26publication in the morning newspapers of Monday, August

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 130th 1943, which do not appear on the streets before 9.30
 2p.m. Eastern [something]", no, it is not Standard Time, I
 3thought it would be, but it is not, BMT. "Sunday, August
 429th 1943, not to be previously published, quoted from or
 5used in any way not to be sent abroad before 7.30 p.m.
 6Sunday, August 29th 1943". So it is an embargo?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What it says is "Declaration on German crimes in Poland.
 9Trustworthy information has reached the United States
10Government regarding the crimes committed by the German
11invaders against the population of Poland. Since the
12autumn of 1942 a belt of territory extending from the
13province of Bialystok southwards along the ... (reading
14to the words) ... has been systematically emptied of its
15inhabitants. In June 1943 these measures were extended to
16practically the whole of the province of Lublin where
17hundreds of thousands of persons have been deported from
18their homes or exterminated. These measures are being
19carried out with the utmost brutality. Many of the
20victims are killed on the spot. The rest are segregated.
21Men from 14 to 50 are taken away to work for Germany.
22Some children are killed on the spot. Others are
23separated from their parents and either sent to Germany to
24be brought up as Germans or sold to German settlers or
25dispatched to the women and old folk concentration camps.
26The United States Government reaffirms its resolve to

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