Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 116 - 120 of 186

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have forgotten where the evidence is for
 2use of this by the British in their intelligence
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Your Lordship will remember there is a bundle of about ten
 5pages of documents, including pages from Thomas Mann's
 6diary, and the diary of a man called Ringelbulm, and the
 7diary of a man called Viktor Klemporer, recording the
 8actual dates that they received these broadcasts. I am
 9afraid I do not know which bundles they are in.
10 MR RAMPTON:     1943, Mr Irving. Page 12 I cannot read. I hope
11it is legible in your copy.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am so sorry, Mr Rampton. I appreciate you
13want to get on, but does anybody have any idea where the
14documents -- I suspect they are somewhere in J -- that
15have just been referred to are to be found?
16 MR RAMPTON:     No.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     My Lord, I can certainly very easily bring in the copies
18again next time I come.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am sure I have them somewhere. I would
20like to know where they are.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     I am not as well organized as I should be, I am afraid.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not blame you for that. Could I ask
23Miss Rogers or somebody to try to track them down?
24 MR RAMPTON:     Do you still feel confident, before we come to
251943, Mr Irving, in saying that the gas chambers were an
26invention of British propaganda?

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 1 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Based on the evidence that I have seen so far, yes.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You do? Can we turn to page 13, because I am afraid
 3I cannot read page 12.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Page 12 is the draft declaration of the British and
 5American governments.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Page 13 refers to a telegram to Moscow, and it is
 7said to be based in the main, or taken in the main from
 8the aide memoir by the Polish government in another file.
 9"This aide memoir", reads this minute from Roger Allen to
10Cavendish-Bentinck, "is in line with a good deal of other
11information which we have received from time to time.
12There can, I think, be little doubt that the general
13picture painted is pretty true to life. On the other
14hand, it is of course extremely difficult, if not
15impossible, for us to check up on specific instances of
16matters of detail."
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have lost you.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     So have I.
19 MR RAMPTON:     I am on page 13, my Lord.
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Which paragraph are we looking at?
21 MR RAMPTON:     I read from the top of the page.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Something has gone wrong in that case.
23 MR RAMPTON:     In that case something has gone wrong.
24 A. [Mr Irving]     I thought I was going mad.
25 MR RAMPTON:     It is a minute by Roger Allen dated 27th August
261943. If we had another year, we might get these file

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 1sorted out.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think the problem may be we have not got
 3the first page. I think we are missing that document
 5 MR RAMPTON:     It is a minute, Mr Irving, do you see, dated 27th
 6August 1943 from Mr Roger Allen?
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We will call that 12A, because there is a 13
10 MR RAMPTON:     Yes 12A, to Mr Cavendish-Bentinck. I will start
11again. I understand that the information on which
12telegram number 1190 to Moscow is based is taken in the
13main from the aide memoir by the Polish government in C,
14whatever it is. This aide memoir is in line with a good
15deal of other information which we have received from time
16to time. There can, I think, be little doubt that the
17general picture painted is pretty true to life. On the
18other hand, it is of course extremely difficult, if not
19impossible, for us to check up on specific instances or
20matters of detail. For this reason, I feel a little
21unhappy about the statement to be issued on the authority
22of His Majesty's government that Poles "are now being
23systematically put to death in gas chambers." I expect
24you are familiar with the rest of this document.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Where is the aide memoire, Mr Rampton?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     That is the previous illegible page, my Lord.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     That is the one I cannot read.
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     To be a draft declaration to be signed by Roosevelt and
 3Churchill and they were meeting in Quebec to discuss it.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Which I think must be the document. Maybe this is
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You can actually read it fairly well.
 7 MR RAMPTON:     Let me try it: Reliable information has reached HM
 8Government regarding the crimes committed by the German
 9invaders against the population of Poland. Since the
10autumn of 1942 a belt of territory extending from the
11province of Bialistok southwards along the line of the
12river Bund has been systematically emptied of its
13inhabitants", crossed out "hundreds of thousands of whom
14have been deported from their homes", continuing uncrossed
15out, "in July 1943 these measures were extended to
16practically the whole of the province of Lublin, where
17hundreds of thousands of persons have been deported from
18their homes or exterminated". That is the handwriting.
19"These measures are being carried out with the utmost
20brutality. Many victims are killed on the spot. The rest
21are segregated. Men from 14 to 50 are taken away to work
22for Germany. Some children are killed on the spot.
23Others are separated from their parents, and either sent
24to Germany to be brought up as Germans or sold to
25German settlers, despatched with the women and old men to
26concentration camps, where they are now being

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 1systematically put to death in gas chambers. HM
 2government" -- something?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Reaffirm.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     "Reaffirmed their resolve to punish the
 5instigators and actual perpetrators of these crimes. They
 6further declare that, so long as such atrocities continue
 7to be committed by the representatives and in the name of
 8Germany, they must be taken into account against the time
 9of the final settlement with Germany. Meanwhile, of the
10war against Germany" -- then I run out, I am afraid, of
11legible words, but that may not matter.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Has been finally overthrown.
13 MR RAMPTON:     Yes.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is not really an aide memoire, is it? It
15is a proposed communication or release.
16 MR RAMPTON:     It is a communique, is it not?
17 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It is a proposed communique, making reference to, in
19particular, systematic extermination in gas chambers.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then, says Allen R to Cavendish-Bentinck on page
2312A apropos that proposed communique, "On the other hand,
24it is of course extremely difficult, if not impossible,
25for us to check up on specific instances or matters of
26detail. For this reason I feel a little unhappy about the

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