Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 106 - 110 of 186

<< 1-5186 >>
    Well, then if we find that your figures and statements are
 1deliberate distortion, inflation of the figures against
 2the interests of the ----
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Obviously, if you find that those books do not support the
 4statements I made, then I would accept that I have made an
 5error. But, of course, I am not going to accept that such
 6an error is deliberate because I have got no reason to
 7make a deliberate error. You do not establish a
 8reputation by making deliberate errors and I am baffled
 9that anyone could suggest that you do.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, I think I have about 25 in my pocket by now,
11Mr Irving, and that is the 26th. Thank you. Now I want
12to deal with the Goebbels diaries. My Lord, may I stop
13now because it is quite intricate and it is 1 o'clock?
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, but before you depart, can we work out
15where we are going to put these?
16 MR RAMPTON:     It is in a sense a new section because it is a new
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Shall we put it at the back of what I
19am calling J3?
20 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. Could your Lordship put it at in the
21separate tab at the back of N1?
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Back of N1.
23 MR RAMPTON:     Because it is an historical document.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Right, 2 o'clock.
25 (Luncheon adjournment)
26 MR RAMPTON:     Mr Irving, before I pass from the criminal

.   P-106

 1statistics for 1932 to a question or two about the
 2Goebbels diaries, can I pass you up a piece of paper? It
 3is a sheet from the same German government document that
 4we were looking at this morning, and there is one for the
 5judge, please. (Same handed). I would like you to look
 6at the section headed "Summer A bis D" for the year 1932.
 7Tell us, please, to what area or areas of Germany these
 8statistics relate?
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     Which? I am sorry, the bottom one, right.
10 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What does the heading say?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     It says the crimes and misdemeanours against Reich laws
12that have been tried by German courts.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. That disposes of that question. This relates to the
14whole of Germany, does it not?
15 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, apparently.
16 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Thank you very much.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     This particular page.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is the page before the following page, is
20 A. [Mr Irving]     It is not, my Lord, no.
21 MR RAMPTON:     No, there are some pages missing, but you can see,
22if you look at the top of page 112, which we already have,
23that the numbers run serially. At the beginning we start
24with 1 and by 112 we are at 63B.
25 A. [Mr Irving]     That may or may not be the case, I cannot comment on that,
26but there are pages missing. I am sure your researchers

.   P-107

 1would not mislead us deliberately.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I hardly think that. The missing pages are here, if you
 3would like to see them. (Same handed). I feel quite
 4confident in saying that these run serially from 1 through
 5(as the Americans say) 115. Anyhow, have a look and see
 6if you agree with me that these are the statistics for the
 7whole of Germany for 1932.
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, they do.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Do you agree?
10 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes, they do.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     They do? Good. Excellent. Perhaps we could have that
12back because it is not mine. I said Goebbels diary, but I
13have been interrupted because we do not have sufficient
14copies of the documents I want, so that will take about a
15quarter of an hour to do. I want to pass to something
16else instead, if I may, which is your assertion that the
17gas chambers were an invention of British propaganda
18during the war. Do you agree that you have, on a number
19of occasions, made that assertion?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. This is the Foreign Office clip of documents you
21gave me recently? Is that right?
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes. Has the judge got a copy of the clip of documents on
23this topic?
25 A. [Mr Irving]     I do not know if I still have it.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought you meant a new clip. The old

.   P-108

 2 MR RAMPTON:     I feel cautious about that, but yes. File L1, tab
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I still have it here.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     My Lord, this relates to two different years, 1942 and
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     1943 starts at page 11, and I will deal with 1942
 9first, if I may. Through no fault of ours, the passage of
10time, inefficiency of typewriters in those days, some of
11this is a bit difficult to read, but never mind. The
12first page -- does your Lordship have it now?
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I have.
14 MR RAMPTON:     The first page contains some typescript in the
15top, and some manuscript in the bottom.
16 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving, doing the best I can, the date of this,
18I think, is 8th August 1942.
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     It says "Reported German plan for extermination of all
21Jews". Do you see that?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Rampton]     This is a Foreign Office document, is it not?
24 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Then it says, I think, "Geneva telegram No. 174, Message
26for Mr Sidney Silverman, Chairman of World Jewish

.   P-109

 1Congress, London, from Mr Gerhard Riegner, Secretary of
 2World Jewish Congress, Geneva. Mr Riegner has received a
 3report stating that in the Fuhrer's headquarters a plan
 4has been discussed and is under consideration for the
 5extermination after deportation to East of all Jews in" --
 6can you read the next bit -- "in the areas occupied or
 7controlled by Germany. Action is planned for the autumn.
 8Ways and means are still (something or other) and include
 9the use of prussic acid". Hydrogen cyanide, that is, is
10it not?
11 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The full text is on the next page actually in
12typescript. You could have read it.
13 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I know that, but I just wanted to see the first date at
14which this information was relayed to the Foreign Office
15in London via Mr Sidney Silverman via Mr Gerhard Riegner
16in Geneva.
17 A. [Mr Irving]     It was received 11th August 1942.
18 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Exactly. 17th August 1942, which is the next page, that
19information is laid out. Says the Foreign Office, "Have
20received by telegraph through His Majesty's Consul General
21at Geneva the following message", and then in a legible
22form we see it on the next page, page 3.
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I will read this: "Following for Mr Sidney Silverman, SS
25Silverman MP, chairman of British section, World Jewish
26Congress London, from Mr Gerhard Riegner, Secretary of

.   P-110

<< 1-5186 >>