Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

Pages 101 - 105 of 186

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    The reason for lumping several sources under one number is
 1say that is the primary source for that statement.
 2 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Can we agree this far ----
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     Have you ever written book? Oh, we had this out before,
 4did we not?
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes, we have had this before and, yes, I have. It is not
 6a very good book, but I have written a book, yes.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     It is quite a difficult task to satisfy all the parties,
 8the publishers, the readers and everybody else.
 9 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I do not agree with you, Mr Irving. I do not accept that
10for one moment. This is a case of deliberate distortion
11by you so as to inflate the number of wicked, dishonest
12Jews in Berlin in 1932. That is my case and you may as
13well know it, because what we have got is you double
14Daluege's numbers, at least, you have relied on an
15unreliable source, you have attributed his figures to
16Interpol and you have spoken about insurance swindles
17which are not mentioned in Daluege's document.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     But I am sorry to sound incorrigible. There are four
19sources listed under that footnote, and you have waved one
20source at the court and said, "It is not in this source of
21the four". If you were to do your job properly, you would
22produce the other three scourss and say, "It is not in
23these three either".
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     All the figures, I am told, come from Daluege. How about
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Who is that or what is that?

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     That is a note passed to me by people who know better than
 2I and , apparently, better than you, Mr Irving?
 3 A. [Mr Irving]     I mean, with the utmost respect for your researchers, if
 4they had done their job properly, they would have had
 5those books that I cited in court as well, and they would
 6possibly even have given me fair warning and said,
 7"Mr Irving, we are going to challenge you on these
 8figures; do you want to spend the lunch hour or this
 9evening just providing the evidence for them?"
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it was in Professor Evans' report.
11 MR RAMPTON:     It is all in Professor Evans' report, Mr Irving.
12This document which you now have at the back of that
13little clip is one of Professor Evans' documents.
14 A. [Mr Irving]     I have only got the Daluege report here.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What?
16 A. [Mr Irving]     I have only got the Daluege report.
17 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, it is folded at the back, I hope. It is an A3 size
19 A. [Mr Irving]     Oh, this one?
20 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Yes.
21 A. [Mr Irving]     Right.
22 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Now look at the front of it, will you, please, Mr Irving?
23This is what you might call a slightly more reliable
24source, you may think, because it is the official Berlin,
25it is the official German statistics?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Is this from my discovery or from elsewhere?

.   P-102

 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     What?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Is this from my discovery or from ----
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, this is Professor Evans'.
 4 A. [Mr Irving]     I mean, it is important to know whether this is from my
 5discovery or from your own research.
 6 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Why? It is a public document, Mr Irving.
 7 A. [Mr Irving]     All right, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Rampton]     You are the great archive fiend.
 9 A. [Mr Irving]     There is no need for that tone of indignation. I am just
10asking a simple question.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, Mr Irving, really. Is this a forgery then by
12Professor Irving (sic) and his cronies?
13 A. [Mr Irving]     No, I am sure you are familiar with the point I am trying
14to establish.
15 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am not at all, Mr Irving.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, I think I understand the point that is
17being made. But let us look at it anyway.
18 MR RAMPTON:     If you look, you see this is for the whole of
20 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is it not? "Statistik des deutschen Reichs", that is the
22whole of the Reich for the year 1932. If you look down
23the left-hand side of this big sheet, we find Nos. 80,
2480B, 80C and 81. Now, in 1932 -- I am going to work
25upwards -- in the whole of Germany, No. 81, there were but
2674 cases of insurance fraud, do you agree?

.   P-103

 1 A. [Mr Irving]     You say in the whole of Germany, but although I agree you
 2have given us the title page of this, this is page 112, we
 3do not know if it was the whole of Germany or just a
 4province of of Prussia or what.
 5 Q. [Mr Rampton]     I am told it is the whole of Germany.
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     Well ----
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Mr Irving ----
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     Because I am quite familiar with these statistical reports
 9and they are broken down into provinces, and I would like
10the assurance we are not just looking at Berlin or just at
12 Q. [Mr Rampton]     So far as it is within my power to do so, I give you that
13assurance because that is what I am told and I regard my
14source as reliable. Now, even if it were just Berlin,
15Mr Irving, just 74 cases of insurance fraud were committed
16by persons of all ethnic backgrounds in Berlin, if you
17like, but in fact for the whole of Germany during 1932.
18Where are these over 50 per cent of 31,000 insurance
19swindles committed by Jews?
20 A. [Mr Irving]     We are looking at 80B and 80C, is that right?
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     81 is ver sicherungsbetreff which I think means insurance
23 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I was looking at the betreff, the ones above, which
24total something like 70,000, 60,000.
25 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Betreff, 80A, that is plain fraud is 50,000 plus?
26 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Repeat frauds, that is 80B [German] 7,000 and a bit?
 2 A. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 3 Q. [Mr Rampton]     And then something about minor fraud offences, 80C, 312.
 481, insurance fraud -- insurance swindle, to use your word
 5-- 74 cases, yes?
 6 A. [Mr Irving]     The overall total of frauds ----
 7 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Is 57,888 for the whole of Germany?
 8 A. [Mr Irving]     And Daluege says that in Berlin it was 32,000 -- of
 9course, we are looking at different years, are we not?
10One is 1932 and here it is 1934 or thereabouts.
11 Q. [Mr Rampton]     No, Mr Irving, I am sorry. Leave Daluege out of this, if
12you will? You made an assertion of fact in your book
13about the number of frauds committed by Jews, mainly
14insurance swindles, in 1932. I am suggesting that any
15reputable historian would have gone to this document, as
16opposed to some rabid Nazi's utterance to a press
17conference, to find out what the truth was.
18 A. [Mr Irving]     Are you saying that Paul Veiglin is a rabid Nazi and that
19Walter Keolein, who is a very well-known German historian
20of the police, is a rabid Nazi?
21 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Those are your other references, are they?
22 A. [Mr Irving]     These are my other sources -- two of the other, two of the
23four sources used, yes.
24 Q. [Mr Rampton]     Well, then if we find that your figures and statements are
25not supported by either of those sources, will you accept
26without equivocation that you have here committed a

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