Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 29: Electronic Edition

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 1IN THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE
1996 I. No. 113
QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION
 2Royal Courts of Justice
 3Strand, London
 4 Thursday, 2nd March 2000
 5
 6Before:
 7MR JUSTICE GRAY
 8
 9B E T W E E N: DAVID JOHN CAWDELL IRVING
10Claimant -and-
11(1) PENGUIN BOOKS LIMITED
12(2) DEBORAH E. LIPSTADT
13Defendants
14The Claimant appeared in person
15MR RICHARD RAMPTON Q.C. (instructed by Messrs Davenport Lyons and Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of the First and
16Second Defendants
17MISS HEATHER ROGERS (instructed by Davenport Lyons) appeared on behalf of the First Defendant Penguin Books Limited
18MR ANTHONY JULIUS (of Mishcon de Reya) appeared on behalf of
19the Second Defendant Deborah Lipstadt
20
21(Transcribed from the stenographic notes of Harry Counsell
&Company, Clifford's Inn, Fetter Lane, London EC4
22Telephone: 020-7242-9346)
23(This transcript is not to be reproduced without the written permission of Harry
Counsell &Company)
24
25 PROCEEDINGS - DAY TWENTY-NINE
26

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 1 (10.30 a.m.)
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Rampton and Mr Irving, before we start
 3today, I wonder if I can hand to you now a list of
 4issues?
 5 MR IRVING:     Yes.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I did mention earlier that it might
 7be helpful -- it is up to both of you -- if we could
 8perhaps take the issues in more or less the order in which
 9I have set them out, if that is not inconvenient? I also
10want to make sure that I have got everything in that
11I need to cover, and that I have not included things that
12really are no longer live issues. Do not take time with
13it now.
14 MR RAMPTON:     No, I will not. There is one item in (i) of four
15which is still to come today from Evans, which will need
16to be added.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. It is just that either at a later stage
18today, or perhaps tomorrow, it might be worth spending a
19few minutes just going through that.
20 MR RAMPTON:     I do not think I will finish my cross-examination
21today.
22 MR IRVING:     That is very useful, my Lord. There are four or
23five minor points that I wish to raise before Mr Rampton
24resumes.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
26 MR IRVING:     The first point is that I have repeatedly asked the

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 1Defence to provide me with the speeches, the transcripts
 2on disk, most recently about 10 days ago by letter. It
 3would obviously assist me in responding to and rebutting
 4these juicy morsels that they are tossed out of their cage
 5into the courtroom, like yesterday. If I had such a thing
 6on disk, and I am entitled to it of course under the
 7rules, once the documents have been pleaded, I am entitled
 8to have them in digital form. There is no reason for this
 9delay other than a deliberate and wilful attempt to impede
10my response.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     So that I am clear what you are asking for,
12is it a disk containing the speeches that you have made
13that the Defendants rely on?
14 MR IRVING:     No, it is a disk containing the transcripts. They
15are put into court by way of their pleadings in evidence.
16Obviously it exists in digital form. It is no great
17burden on them. It is five minutes work to do, just
18pressing one button. They could have done this 10 days
19ago, if not, indeed, when I first asked for them.
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It does not sound an unreasonable request.
21 MR RAMPTON:     I have no idea. I do not deal in disks, I am
22afraid. I deal in paper. I will pass on that request.
23I am surprised it has not been responded to. If it is
24anybody's fault, I apologise for it on their behalf. If
25these transcripts -- and I think Mr Irving means the
26transcripts that are in the K files ----

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 1 MR IRVING:     Yes.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, which is racism, anti-Semitism, or
 3allegedly so.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     -- which are mostly his own words. If they are on
 5a disk, which I imagine they must be, then by all means,
 6if it is easier.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think I know they are on disk because I am
 8not -- well, anyway, if it can be done, it should be done
 9soon because Mr Irving needs it.
10 MR RAMPTON:     If it is possible, it should be done before the
11weekend.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Before the weekend, I agree, yes.
13 MR IRVING:     A not unrelated matter is that the Defence
14solicitors are still sitting on a number of my microfilms
15and papers. They keep promising to return them. When
16they returned my previous boxes of papers, they returned
17them in a totally disheveled state, which has not assisted
18me ----
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is something I do not really want to get
20into now. Raise that, but perhaps at a later stage.
21 MR IRVING:     The third point, my Lord, is the Eichmann
22manuscripts. I gave the undertaking which your Lordship
23very properly required. The manuscript has now been
24placed in the public domain. It is on, for example, the
25website of Der Spiegel and elsewhere. I would ask that
26the undertaking which I gave should now be rescinded or

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 1annulled, if Mr Rampton has no objection, in order that I
 2am not----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I suspect he may not really know the score on
 4that.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     I do not know the score. I am told that that
 6version, which is the electronic version, that came to us
 7from the Israeli Government cannot be used for any purpose
 8but this trial. If it is on some website or other, then
 9perhaps we can have our disk back so we can give it back
10to the Israeli Government, and people can use the public
11domain copy.
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well ...
13 MR IRVING:     Without wanting to compare the public domain
14version word for word with the version given to me, I see
15that it has been published in the Guardian yesterday, for
16example.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have seen reports which make it appear that
18you may be right.
19 MR IRVING:     Having given the undertaking ----
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I am not in a position to judge is
21whether the whole of it is in now in the public domain.
22If the whole of it is, then it seems to me that you should
23be released from your, undertaking, but I am not going to
24release you now. I do not think this is really in a way
25Mr Rampton's problem.
26 MR RAMPTON:     

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