Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 91 - 95 of 204

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It was you who asked the question, Mr Irving?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Whatever you call it, I do not care.
 3 MR IRVING:     I am quite happy to abandon this question
 4because ----
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, no, I want to know it.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you not say on 5.3.32 that they were fictitious
 7organizations, 5.3.32?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     They will not be in your book if they were
 9fictitious, I suspect.
10 MR IRVING:     I am trying to speed things up.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Just a second.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     I will be quite happy to move on.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, whilst the witness, he is
14obviously very keen to look up and I understand why.
15I think you have been ----
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, this is one of this little group without ----
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Funke, can you just pause a moment
18because I just want to say something to Mr Irving.
19Mr Irving, I think you have been cross-examining for
20nearly a day now. I have to tell you that I am not much
21the wiser as to what your case is in regard to what this
22witness has said, namely that there are these individuals
23with whom you have a close association and they are all on
24the extreme right-wing fringe. I cannot let the
25cross-examination go on. I keep asking you to focus on
26what matters.

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 1 MR IRVING:     On individuals.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And you are continuing to go through
 3footnotes and trivial points. I think the point has come
 4where, unless Mr Rampton discourages me, I must say to you
 5you must at 2 o'clock put your case in relation to these
 6individuals and the organizations so that I understand
 7what it is, because I do not think it is right for me to
 8let the court's time be taken up with cross-examination
 9which seems to me to achieving virtually nothing.
10 MR RAMPTON:     Can I add to that?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I would like to hear Mr Rampton on this
12because I do not want to be over strict.
13 MR RAMPTON:     No, I embrace that because I have no idea what
14Mr Irving says about these people's political attitudes,
15(a) what their political attitudes are, and (b) whether he
16knows what they are. That is essential. What is also
17essential is that he should say yeah or nay, does he
18propose that these meetings which he attended were in
19their content entirely innocent?
20 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I think it has to be done.
21 MR IRVING:     That is for cross-examination.
22 MR IRVING:     No, it is not; I do not know what Mr Irving's case
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I want to make every allowance for the fact
25that you are in person and you have had an appalling task
26cross-examining witness after witness, expert witness

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 1after expert witness, and there is an enormous volume of
 2material you are having to deal with. But, in the end
 3what matters is these individuals and the associations
 4that they had or did not have with you. You must do it.
 5 MR IRVING:     Well, I believed I was working through this report
 6name by name and, effectively, devaluing the quality of
 7the evidence that had been given to suggest, except for a
 8number of key names which we are all familiar with.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, what you are not doing, it is perfectly
10true that you pick up the odd name like Karl Philipp, or
11whatever it may be, and you make one or two -----
12 MR IRVING:     That is the way the report has been written.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You ask one or two questions by reference to
14individual diary entries, but you are missing the wood for
15the trees again. What I need to have you put to this
16witness is, "I did not ever meet with Karl Philipp or
17I may have spoken at meetings at which he was present, but
18I did not know it" or "Yes, we used to associate quite
19regularly together, but there is nothing particularly
20right-wing about him". Put your case.
21 MR IRVING:     I can do that in 15 minutes, my Lord.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I do not want you to telescope it too
23much, but what has taken place this morning has really
24not, I think, advanced your case on this aspect of this
25trial at all.
26 MR IRVING:     Well, I hoped that I was shaking your Lordship's

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 1confidence in page after page after page of this report,
 2which is initially impressive, but then once we take out
 3the OPC reports, it becomes very much thinner. Once we
 4take out the names of people I have never even met or
 5heard of it becomes frequently sparse and fragmentary.
 6Now we can deal with the people whose names I have heard
 7of and deal with them in short order. For that reason I
 8will go to the appendix and look at the names that we have
 9highlighted, the people on the list, and put the
10propositions directly to the witness ----
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
12 MR IRVING:     --- that your Lordship is suggesting.
13 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes. I think that is the right way to do it,
14but do not feel confined -- when you are on a relevant
15topic, I do not want you to cut your cross-examination
17 MR IRVING:     There are matters like the Adolf Hitler toast that
18was organized by Ewald Althans and things like that, and
19I would hate to let that go by the board.
20 MR RAMPTON:     No, that should not be let go because that is a
21point I seek to be of some importance.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I mean, I cannot dictate the way you
23cross-examined, but if I had been doing this instead of
24you, I would have taken the individuals, I think I would
25have taken them one by one, and I would have gone through
26the alleged association to see how much of it there really

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 2 MR IRVING:     My Lord, you have considerable more experience than
 3I do in cross-examination and some of your clients have
 4ended up in prison and some of them, no doubt, have been
 5acquitted and have been awarded large sums in damages.
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     That is kind of you to put it like that. Now
 7let us get on with the cross-examination.
 8 MR IRVING:     I am totally ignorant in the manner of how to deal
 9with these things. I will certainly take the 5.3.35, we
10will deal with 5.3.35. My Lord, I do feel we have
11achieved things this morning, for example, establishing
12agreement that at most of these meetings I have rubbed
13their noses in the Bruns Report, things like that, which
14I hope your Lordship will not overlook when the time
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have that answer, yes, certainly.
17THE WITNESS: Can I just answer the question?
18 MR IRVING:     Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What about those three organizations?
20 MR IRVING:     Very briefly.
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The [German] quotation in the bundle No. 2, bundle H5.(i),
22No. (ii) or 2, I do not know, (ii) I think -- no, it is 2,
23right. Page on the bottom, 562, this is the leaflet and
24this leaflet is very sharp in criticising in the same line
25of Holocaust denial calling one of the most hideous
26sentences of Mr Irving. So the document itself shows me

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