Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 86 - 90 of 204

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    Mr Irving, are you challenging the
 1not, why are we spending a long time discussing whether
 2the source for it is reliable?
 3 MR IRVING:     We will spend no further time. Paragraph 5.3.19,
 4Professor Funke. We are now on page 66. We are back at
 5the Moers meeting?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     At 5.3.17 before that, you describe the speech I made at
 8Moers as being demagogic or I describe it as being
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you object, demagogic, if you remember the little
12speech I made at the Leuchter Congress, was that
13demagogic, although all I was saying was that I am not
14allowed to speak?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It refers to your diary.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but, I mean, there is nothing reprehensible about
17making a demagogic speech inherently or is there?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Oh, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     All right.
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     My perception of demagogic is not so good as yours.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     5.3.19, we are now actually going on to the content of the
22Moers speech?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     The Moers speech was organized by Mr Althans, was it?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     And here I am quoted as saying by the transcript: "Then

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 1I believed these gentlemen [German historians] who said
 2that something happened at Auschwitz. Now I no longer
 3believe this story at all. Today I say the following:
 4there were no gassings in Auschwitz". Stop there, do you
 5know the difference between Auschwitz and Birkenhau?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, of course.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you read either in these court documents or before or
 8since an article published in L'Expresse, a French news
 9magazine of repute, in January 1995 which established that
10the gas chamber at Auschwitz which is shown to the
11tourists is fake and that they admit it?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Give me the evidence, but it was debated very much in this
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, we have been through that several
15times. It has nothing to do with this witness's
17 MR IRVING:     It is my way just of reminding the court.
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, please accept that I remember what you
19say about the dummies at Dachau and Auschwitz.
20 MR IRVING:     The court did interrupt me when I was trying
21to cross-examine van Pelt about this matter.
22 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Only because you had previously
23cross-examined him about it. So don't let us spend time
24with Professor Funke on it.
25 MR IRVING:     The topics mentioned in paragraph 5.3.23?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is over the page actually, at the top of page 68, there
 2are several topics mentioned there, are any of those
 3topics Holocaust denial or anti-Semitism or are they just
 4plain revisionism?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I just have to read the sentence. No, it seems not.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is Mr Althans who was organizing this particular tour
 7with these topics?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 69, half way down the page, the letter was headed
10with a quote from Irving, the question is what evidence do
11you have that there was ever such a quote from me?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     To what line are you referring to, please?
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Effectively, the second half of that page beginning with
14"The letter was headed"?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     69? Yes, I have it.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is a letter issued by some organization with an
17invitation to a speech by me and then it is headed with
18what is said to be a quotation from me?
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     You are saying that is something you never
21 MR IRVING:     That is what I am putting to this witness, my Lord,
22yes. Have you seen any evidence that that quotation
23actually comes from anything I wrote or said?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I know that to a degree you referred to that kind of
25ideas, that is quoted there, that I know by the bundle of
26excerpts on anti-Semitism that Mr Rampton brought to the

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 1court. Yes. But I do not know now, I have to look at the
 2bundles to see.
 3 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. I do not want to dwell too long on organizations,
 4but there are two or three bodies that you mentioned in
 5that paragraph, 5.3.27, are any of them banned or
 6right-wing extremists to your knowledge?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     5.3.27?
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. The Arbeitskreis Deutsche Wahrheit or the
 9Forderverein Junges Deutschland?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I have to look up, I do not know.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Have you heard of them before?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not at that point, not at that point, it seems to, not at
13that point in time.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     But have you ever heard of them?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, but I do not know if they are banned. I have to look
16up later on.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     But it is not of interest ...
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you just say that they are right wing extremists,
20although you obviously do not know very much about them?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is the point you want to make?
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Then I have to look up more precise than...
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, unless his Lordship attaches importance here,
25I think we will move on.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     OK, good.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     The impression I had was that you are relatively
 2unfamiliar with these bodies and that you were willing to
 3express an opinion on them, nonetheless?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So what did I say? So now come to the point, please.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     When I asked you were you familiar with them you said,
 6well ----
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, no.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- yes and no.
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     What did I say on these groups, little groups? What did
10I say? What did I say to present them? What did I say?
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What Mr Irving said you said was that you had
12said that they were right-wing extremist organizations,
13but I am not quite sure where you are supposed to have
14said that.
15 MR IRVING:     I asked if they were, my Lord, and he said, yes, he
16thought they were, but this was after he had said he did
17not know very much about them.
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, this is right. They are listed in this hundreds of
19groups of right-wing extremist tiny groups, and it is of
20interest that you spoke there and that they are perceived
21as right-wing extremists. I can look it up, I mean, of
22course if you want, so I looked it up but I have to
23refresh my memory. I think this is valid to do.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are going back to the consensus, are you? Are you
25going to have another look at the consensus of all the
26social sciences?

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