Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 81 - 85 of 204

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    Yes, it is a very important source, because he is one of
 1and even film it, and all the video material is from him.
 2So of course it is an important source. It is a worldwide
 3important source for this kind of camp.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     But contrasting, shall we say, the postwar memoirs of
 5Michael Schmidt, this left-wing journalist on the one
 6hand, and his recollection that he seemed to think that
 7I arrive with Michael Kuhnen with my diary which shows
 8clearly that I am with my daughter and there is no
 9reference to Michael Kuhnen arriving with me at all, or
10even being with me, in fact there is no reason why he
11would have been because I came from a totally different
12part of Germany, you have to admit that, on balance of
13probabilities, it is unlikely?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I cannot say yes or no to that. I read your diary. I was
15very cautious, but I have to mention that there are other,
16you know, eyewitnesses of that meeting.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     One?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Can I take you now to 5.3.16? We have moved on from
20Michael Kuhnen. One of your other sources, a Miss
21Benedict, is it, or Mrs Benedict?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Says that I received applause from the older members of
24the audiences, especially SS veterans. How on earth does
25she know they were SS veterans?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     She stated so.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is this not indicative of the kind of things your sources
 2are writing? Were they in uniform? Did they hold up
 3party cards?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I quote this person and I do not know more.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are you not critical about the sources you use when you
 6write these reports?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Oh, yes I am very, and Benedict is one of the sources
 8I met often, and she is one of those who knew the scene as
 9intense and differentiated as, for example, Wagner. The
10problem is with these sources of course ----
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is she one of your social scientists that you refer to?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Excuse me?
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is she one of your social scientists you refer to as being
14a reliable source?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     I thought so.
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is more out of an observational perspective, and she is
18one of the persons out of East Germany who knew the scene
19from before '89. So she knew the persons they interacted
20in the definitive phase between '85 and '90. So she is a
21very reasonable source.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 5.2 ----
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I thought we had got beyond that.
24 MR IRVING:     We had got beyond that and I was just going to
25reassure myself once again, my Lord, this is headed "OPC
26Observations", that paragraph, it is on page 58, your

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 1Lordship is paying little heed to OPC observations
 2I trust.
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well ----
 4 MR IRVING:     That is the German Office of the Protection of the
 6 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, I follow that. We went through this
 7yesterday and it seems to me I make up my mind about these
 8organizations on the basis of what Professor Funke tells
10 MR IRVING:     Yes.
11 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And not what the OPC says.
12 MR IRVING:     We did have a discussion about it yesterday, and
13the impression I got was that your Lordship would attach
14little weight to what these ----
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What I said yesterday was exactly what I said
16just now.
17 MR IRVING:     I will have to read transcript. 5.3.2, Mr Zundel,
18footnote 198, there is a reference to Zundel's Maulkorb
19which is a ----
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     598?
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sorry, footnote 198. There is a reference to a
22Maulkorb having been put on Zundel, a dog, what is the
23word for it ----
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I did not see it.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is probably not important then.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is a classic example of what I did invite

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 1you not to do, which is to go to some rather obscure
 2footnote and completely fail to put your case in relation
 3to your association or otherwise with Mr Zundel.
 4I thought you accepted that Zundel was somebody with whom
 5you had a close association?
 6 MR IRVING:     Yes, indeed, but it is just a trivial point I was
 7just going to ask him if he knew why this Maulkorb, this
 8gag, had been applied on Zundel, was it just a legal gag.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     If it is a trivial point let us, please, not
10bother with it.
11 MR IRVING:     Yes. 5.3.26, please, this is Mr Althans who is
12organizing my tour for me in Dresden and elsewhere. It
13states that the turnover did not apply, the Umsatz
14entfallt. Do you know why that was? Are you familiar
15from the correspondence that I had agreed to donate the
16entire proceedings for the rebuilding of the Church of our
17Lady in Dresden?
18 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far as I recall, yes.
19 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. So there is nothing sinister about that particular
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, it seems not.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 5.3.7, I am sorry my numbering has gone slightly
23astray, 5.3.7, you have: "In his report on Irving's court
24appearance", and you give as a footnote there 218. Is the
25source you give for that ----
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Where is 218?

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Footnote 218, would I be right in describing that book
 2that you are using there as being an anti-fascist kind of
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Say it again? Where you are, please?
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We have now gone back to paragraph 5.3.7.
 6 MR IRVING:     Footnote 218 about Karl Philipp?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     5.3.7.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am just commenting on your evidently using what I would
 9call anti-fascist sources. It is footnote 218. The
10question is purely, is that book you quote there what you
11would call an anti-fascist source?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Exactly.
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. You accept such sources quite uncritically, do you?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I stated yesterday that I do it for a special purpose in a
15special situation where these sources seem to be very
16valid. Of course I have to do it in the case of the
17Michael Schmidt video, and this is a kind of rewriting of
18the whole video material Michael Schmidt put to these
19people. That is why, otherwise I would not, because
20I have to check again and again, but I could check,
21especially these sources, by seeing the videos and seeing
22what it means and what not.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     Would it not have been preferable to have used the
24original sources rather than other people's ----
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, are you challenging the
26correctness of what Mr Philipp wrote, because if you are

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