Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 76 - 80 of 204

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It seems to.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you think that was only occasion that I did this, or
 3did I make a habit of doing that to every single
 4right-wing audience I spoke to?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It seems that you not only did it in Hagenau, so far as
 6I recall.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     There were frequent protests from these right-wingers,
 8these extremists, of the fact I rubbed their noses in the
 9crimes committed by the Nazis and the SS, and that this is
10documented in a way that we do not have to rely on a
11consensus of opinion, or the opinion of the social
12sciences. We have documents showing that I rubbed their
13noses in these crimes.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, especially from Christopherson, I may add.
15Christopherson said not to do this, do not refer.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and did I carry on doing it?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is right.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     In paragraph 5.3.13, this is a meeting at which
19I addressed in Hamburg and then, I am sorry, paragraph
205.3.12. You are referring to a meeting that I addressed
21in Hamburg and then, in 5.3.13, you purport to put in what
22I said at that meeting. Is that transcript, in fact, from
23Hamburg or is it from another meeting?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Wait a minute. I think I did a mistake but I have to look
25at it more precisely.
26 MR RAMPTON:     I think, in fact, it is the Moers meeting. It has

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 1somehow been transposed.
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, I have to admit that ----
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     It is two months later, is it not?
 4 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, it is two months later, in fact.
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     By the way, the Moers meeting was not in your diary. It
 6was stated sometime, it was on the 5th, but so far
 7I reconstructed it was at the 9th March.
 8 MR RAMPTON:     It was the ninth Moers of ----
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, of 9th March.
10 MR RAMPTON:     --- 5.3.19. That is the one meeting of which we
11do have a full transcript.
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I referred to that, your Lordship, at the beginning of my
13three remarks today in the morning.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes.
15 MR IRVING:     You made references on these pages to the NL. That
16is the Nationale Liste, is that right?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Was that banned at that time?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     In 5.3.14 - I am going to come back to the Hamburg meeting
21in a second - you had me saying there: "We are always
22running the danger that we will be arrested..." This is
23Moers meeting from the transcript, is it not?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I am lost.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     5.3.14?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     5.3.14?

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 1 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, it is.
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 3 MR IRVING:     It all sounds rather conspiratorial, me telling an
 4audience there that we are running the danger, that we are
 5going to be arrested. Was the situation, at that time in
 6Germany, really dangerous for dissident historians, that
 7there was danger of being arrested because of what you
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is in early 1990, right? Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Are people still serving prison sentences in Germany today
11for things they said in 1990, to your knowledge, Gunther
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not for dissenting historians, but for hardcore denialists
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, the really wicked ones? Are you aware that the
16German government applied for my extradition last year
17because of something I said in September 1990?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, Mr Irving, I think we did at an earlier
19stage agree that what governments do or do not do is
20really not going to be helpful.
21 MR IRVING:     I am proud to live in England and not in Germany,
22my Lord. 5.3.15.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I would like to comment on this.
25 MR IRVING:     This is an important one. 5.3.15, when you state
26that I arrived with Kuhnen, which is obviously an

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 1important point, the journalist Michael Schmidt, who is
 2one of your favourite sources, says that Irving arrived
 3with Michael Kuhnen at this meeting in Hamburg.
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     You had before you my diary?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did you check with the diary to see if there is any
 8indication that I arrived with Michael Kuhnen?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No. No, of course not. That is why I am raising this
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, either it is worth checking if something is likely
12or not. Can I take you to pages 13 and 14 of the bundle,
13please, I am sorry page 13.
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Of the bundle?
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     It is complicated and I am not going to read it all out.
18I want you to run your eye down it and I will ask you in
19advance the questions I am going to ask. Is it evident
20from at that my daughter Paloma was with me on this tour
21of Hamburg, tour of Germany, and that she was with me in
22the car and that she came with me to the function?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     And that I spoke later that evening at another function to
25university students?
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And that you knew that Michael Kuhnen was

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 1going to be present.
 2 MR IRVING:     I beg your pardon?
 3 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     And that you knew that Michael Kuhnen was
 4going to be present.
 5 MR IRVING:     Did I say that I would not come if he was going to
 6be present, that this has caused problems? This evoked
 7consternation and I said I was not going to come. The
 8question I am going to ask you is, is there any evidence
 9from the diary entry that I had Michael Kuhnen in the car
10with me and would I not have mentioned it?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     In the car?
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     In my car, yes.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I did not know.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     So you will accept, will you, that he was not with me and
15I did not arrive with him?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, it is just the diary.
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     Will you accept once more that I have never met Michael
18Kuhnen knowingly in my life?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     As a responsible scientist I have to at least notify that
20there are other hints and eyewitnesses, so to speak, who
21say differently.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     You have one, Michael Schmidt, you are familiar source,
23Michael Schmidt?
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, it is a very important source, because he is one of
25the few who is not in the right-wing camp, and could
26manage it for a time of some years to interact with them

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