Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 66 - 70 of 204

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    The question was, so I quote it again, first in German,
 1million people Jews.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is the sense of my final answer there that it is a
 3defamation of the German people if one talks of
 4extermination camps or death camps not, in fact, the
 5following: "Is it the defamation of German people when you
 6ask why Auschwitz is called an extermination camp, if you
 7talk about extermination camps or death camps"? Do you
 8understand what I am saying?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Say it again?
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I do not want you to, because you have
11interpolated some words that are not there.
12 MR IRVING:     I am interpolating his question to which I am
13responding, my Lord, to make it quite plain that this is
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     For my part, I think this debate has gone on
16long enough. I have the words that you have recorded as
17having said and I hear what you put and I hear what the
18witness answers.
19 MR IRVING:     The words that I am quoted as having said rather
20than recorded as having said is the first point I make.
21The second point is I would say, what the correction
22translation for "Todesfabriken"?
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think that "death camps" is the more used translation,
24but the sense of it is the general observation that you
25denied the Holocaust, that is to say, the killing of 5 to
266 million Jewish people.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     You are aware, of course, that I have always said that
 2there is no evidence that Auschwitz was purpose designed
 3as a Vernichtungslager or a factory of death. Are you
 4aware of that point?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think you waived on that before 1989 and since 1989, you
 6were very firm on that line.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     This is since 1989; this is late 1989, is that correct?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     So, if this has always been my position, then this is
10clearly all that I am saying in that paragraph. Do not
11come to me with talk about extermination camps and death
12camps, Auschwitz and so on.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     But you have criticise then Karl Philipp.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Then you have to criticise Karl Philipp and you did not do
17 Q. [Mr Irving]     No, I am criticising the person first of all who
18translated "Todesfabriken" as death camps.
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     And you did not do so.
20 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am just criticising him now. I am also criticising the
21person who is not capable of seeing that this a response
22directly to the previous question.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So ----
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am not going to take it any further.
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So, again I have to state ----
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, we were passing on now, Professor Funke.

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     OK.
 2 MR IRVING:     You refer in your footnote 172, to the point that
 3has already been raised, but here you make it more
 4clearly, you say here that "Wahrheit macht Frei" is a
 5tasteless pun, a "Wortspiel", on the inscription set over
 6the gates at Auschwitz "Arbeit macht Frei". Is it not the
 7other way round?
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Excuse me, where is it?
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Footnote 172.
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, excuse me.
11 Q. [Mr Irving]     Is it not the other way round that the quotation from the
12scriptures, no doubt, comes 2,000 years before the SS so
13that the SS with the inscription over the gates with the
14tasteless pun ----?
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, we had this precise point
16yesterday, and you say that there is no connection between
17"Arbeit macht Frei" and what one sees at this meeting.
18 MR IRVING:     My Lord, here he is making the point in his
19footnote which he did not make yesterday. Your
20Lordship made the connection, but he did not.
21 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I did not make the connection; I observed
22that you deny that there is one.
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     If I recall, the last speech of Raymund Bachman, in the
24second Leuchter Congress in 30, 23rd March 1991, before
25the Museum, he raised his voice and even shouted that we
26should not be suppressed by the police agencies and so

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 1forth, and that freedom of expression should not be
 2suppressed. What he meant was the ideas of these
 3Holocaust deniers to be spread out and to say these denial
 4things. Then he shouted to the public, and I would invite
 5to see this, the Bachman, the Austrian speaker:
 6"Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz", and the whole people
 7reacted to that. So, the more I realise what these
 8congresses are about, the more there is an allusion of
 9"Arbeit macht Frei", in the sense that this was a cynical
10description of destruction by work and this "Wahrheit
11macht Frei", the more I think about it, the more it is
12related to each other.
13 MR IRVING:     My Lord, I have to say that I have no recollection
14of having seen that man shout "Auschwitz" three times on
15the video and I do not know if your Lordship saw it?
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, I think the point is whether "Arbeit
17macht Frei" is or is not connected with "Wahrheit macht
18Frei". I really do not think we can debate this any
20 MR RAMPTON:     No, we cannot, but we may as well if we throw it
21away with some ease because, in Mr Irving's diary for
22October 3rd 1989 when he was in West Berlin, he writes
23this: "At 11 am, a well attended press conference at the
24Kampinski (which I believe is some kind of hotel), around
2520 writers, six or seven genuine journalists told them
26(I will read it but I do not know what it means): Zeit:

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 111 Uhr heute Morgen wird zuruckgeschossen, and closed with
 2my new slogan Wahrheit macht Frei. The lefty journalists
 3got the allusions".
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Yes, thank you. Mr Irving, you are in person
 5and I appreciate the difficulties and you, again, have
 6been confronted with an extremely long and detailed
 7report, but, in the end, I think it is important to
 8remember ----
 9 MR IRVING:     It is the names.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- what it is that this witness is telling
11me that really matters. He has identified a number of
12individuals who he says are right-wing extremist with whom
13he says you have close associations or associations
14anyway. That is what I am going to get from this witness,
15if I get anything, and----
16 MR IRVING:     We will come to them.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- we are darting around looking at the odd
18footnote here and there and, as I have said so many times
19before, it is really the big picture that you must tackle,
20not whether particular footnotes are accurate or not. So
21can you please bear that in mind because I just do not
22think that we are making progress at all.
23 MR IRVING:     It is just that I can feel the sharks over there.
24They will leap on anything that I have not traversed.
25 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Try to ignore them and concentrate on asking
26the questions which I want to hear the answers to.

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