Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 61 - 65 of 204

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    Please, Professor Funke, that really is not
 1one talks of extermination camps or death camps". Now,
 2you either said that or you did not. If your case is that
 3you did not say it, I think you ought to put it.
 4 MR IRVING:     I will put it another way round. Professor Funke,
 5was this press conference held in English or in German, in
 6your opinion?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Normally, these press conferences to get a better audience
 8are held in German.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     So this is a translation by somebody into English, and we
10have no way really of knowing exactly what words I used.
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     But I can ----
12 MR RAMPTON:     The German is quoted in footnote 175.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right. It is stated there.
14 MR RAMPTON:     It is in the plural -- even I know that -- in
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I just want to quote it now.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     There is no need because I have read it out
18in English and Mr Irving is suggesting it is a
19mistranslation, he can say so. Mr Irving, are you
20suggesting there is a mistranslation there?
21 MR IRVING:     There clearly is. "Todesfabriken" is not "death
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, it is "death factories".
24 MR IRVING:     "Factories of death" which is precisely the
25position I have adopted.
26 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     What is the difference?

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     Plural or singular?
 2 MR IRVING:     My Lord, this is crematorium No. (ii) and we have
 3gone over that in some detail already.
 4 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Now, come on, let us get to grips with this.
 5Are you saying that you have either been misquoted or that
 6what you said has been mistranslated in a significant way
 7beyond what you have just pointed out, Mr Irving? I think
 8you must come clean and put your case on this.
 9 MR IRVING:     I think it is a misquotation. I am not prepared to
10accept this is a genuine quotation of what I said. It
11partially represents my position. The "Todesfabriken" is
12correct. "Vernichtungslagern" is not correct. If the
13Defence wishes to produce a verbatim transcript of that
14press conference, then it is up to them to do so.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, that is an invitation that might be
16taken up because it, presumably, does exist, there must be
17a transcript.
18 MR IRVING:     Yes.
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Can you help about that, Professor Funke? Do
20you know what you are quoting from derives?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. Just a second. The middle of page 52, just a second
22it is from Code. This is a right-wing extremist magazine
23that quotes this interaction. It is either Franker
24Griesch or Karl Philipp, maybe, so one of, just to have a
25look at it a minute, if you allow, your Lordship? Yes, it
26is a publishing of the press conference content by Code,

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 1C-O-D-E, and this again is done by Karl Philipp. So he
 2may be responsible for this kind of translation, what
 3shows that he goes very -- he is a close co-operative
 4person to Irving, knows or was also there at the press
 5conference in London and he was there in the press
 6conference in Berlin. So, the sense, the gist of it,
 7I think he knows very well and, if I may say again, the
 8translation of this German sentence is ----
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do not worry about the translation. It was
10really a simple question by me where it came from.
11 MR RAMPTON:     I have the source here. We will provide, I think
12it only right, if your Lordship agrees, the article from
13which it is taken.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     By Karl Philipp?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Bundle No.?
16 MR RAMPTON:     Yes. It is bundle No. 5.1(i), H5.(i)?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     And then (i).
18 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, (i).
19 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     May I suggest we leave this to re-examination
20when copies are available for everybody because they will
21not be at the moment, unless you think that is an
22undesirable course?
23 MR RAMPTON:     They are.
24 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, if they are, have you got H5.(i)?
25 MR RAMPTON:     Yes, it is page 324 stamped at the bottom. In my
26file it is after a blue tab.

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right, I see.
 2 MR IRVING:     I will ask the witness further questions on this
 3passage, obviously.
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Just a second.
 5 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     All right.
 6 MR RAMPTON:     I can tell your Lordship that the words in
 7question, well, one of the words in question, one of the
 8groups, [German - document not provided] is in the second
 9column at the top, at the end of the first block of
10Irving, and the exchange between Irving and the journalist
11where Irving says that there were no Vernichtungslagern or
12Todesfabriken is in the second column. It is the second
13Irving quote, the first half of that second Irving quote,
14the question having been, whatever it was [German -
15document not provided].
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So it is clearly related to Todesfabriken, and that means
17death fabrics or death camps, death factories, and this is
18cannot be only the Auschwitz camp or the crematorium (ii)
19or whatever you are referring just a minute ago, it is a
20very general statement that you deny the essence of
22 MR IRVING:     Let me ask you two or three questions about that
23passage at the top of page 55. As Mr Rampton is
24obviously ----
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- hanging his coat on it.

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 1 MR RAMPTON:     One of my many coats.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Ask the question, leave aside Mr Rampton.
 3 MR IRVING:     Is the entire exchange, the five-line exchange:
 4"Journalist Irving, journalist Irving" concerning
 5Auschwitz, are his two questions about Auschwitz and am I
 6replying to two questions about Auschwitz?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The sentences before, yes. But the last sentence is a
 8general observation. The last sentence, I quote it
 9again: "Es ist eine Verleumdung des deutschen Volkes,
10wenn man von Vernichtungslagern und Todesfabriken
11spricht". This is clearly a general statement on the
12essence of the Holocaust you are denying towards the
13German public.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     "In bezug auf Auschwitz" - with regard to Auschwitz. That
15is what was his question was about, is that correct?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The question was, so I quote it again, first in German,
17"(Journalist) Warum heisst Auschwitz denn
18Vernichtungslager? (Irving) Nicht bei mir. Nur bei Ihnen
19und bei den deutschen Historikern. Und dann" ---- then
20there is the sentence I quoted before, it is -- it is
21there stated so I want to take this. It is a defamation
22of the German people, if one talks of extermination camps
23or death camps. So it is clearly a general statement.
24You know, you began by answering a question to Auschwitz,
25and then you extended it to the whole Holocaust, or
26however you say, this bit about the murdering of nearly 6

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