Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 56 - 60 of 204

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    --- television station, of which we have seen the
 1photograph, Pedro Varela was there, was he not?
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know. This is photograph, yes, then he was
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     He was next to me holding a placard calling German
 5historians liars and cowards?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, right, yes.
 7 Q. [Mr Irving]     How do you know that it was because of the repugnance of
 8my views that the historians refused to debate with me,
 9Jaeckel and the other historians who have been invited on
10to this panel?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far I know it is because of your radicalization of your
12revisionist viewpoints since you endorse the so-called
13Fred Leuchter report.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     Like the Second Defendant in this case, all these
15historians refuse to debate with people who have different
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, say it again.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     These historians refuse to debate with people who hold
19different opinions to themselves?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No, not at all, not at all. They are very informed and
21debatable, debating scholars, like Jaeckel, for example.
22I know him very well.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     There is a footnote on the previous page 53, 158, you
24refer to a letter that I say that I am brushing up my
25Holocaust vocabulary?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It is on?

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Page 53, because I am about to go to Spain, am I not, and
 2go on a lecture tour organized by Mr Varela? This is
 3footnote 158.
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Excuse me.
 5 Q. [Mr Irving]     In the meantime, I will freshen up my Holocaust
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     If you were going to make a lecture tour in Spain, in
 9Spanish, would you also want to know how to translate
10words ----
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, of course.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- and you would make sure you have the correct words?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Of course.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     That is what that refers to, in other words?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     There was nothing sinister about it. Paragraph 5.1.7,
17this is still about the Berlin demonstration, and I say
18that some of the people who are turning up on our behalf
19are some quite rough in my private diary, is it not?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     What was the political situation in Berlin at that time?
22Was there a violent left-wing scene? I mean, the
23anarchists, were they an extremely violent gang of thugs
24who went around brutalising people?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     That period of time I was in Berkeley, California.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, Berkeley was much the same, was it not?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Not, at that point of history.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     It was when I spoke there.
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     But in Berlin?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So I do not feel, you know, endangered by this.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     I am sure you do not, but, well ----
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     As a normal person ----
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     What is the word ----
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- and also my friend.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     What does the word "Chaoten" mean to you? It is
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Chaoten? You want a good translation?
13 Q. [Mr Irving]     Well, I just want to know what image does it conjure up?
14It is frequently used by the press, is it not, to describe
15people to breaking up demonstrations?
16 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes. They bring up demonstrations and doing it too often,
17this is a kind of subtext of it.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     So if you were organizing any kind of demonstration, even
19on the smallest scale in Berlin, you would want to go
20along and make sure that you were not going to be beaten
21to a pulp, you would have people there who were able to
22protect your suit or whatever?
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, you have lost me completely.
24I just do not know what point you are seeking to make.
25 MR IRVING:     The witness has referred to the fact that,
26obviously, I made a note in my diary that some of the

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 1people who were coming along to our demonstration that
 2night were rough necks, some quite rough, I think are the
 3words, and I am just pointing out there was obviously a
 4reason why we were glad to have one or two people with
 5shoulder muscles there.
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Was there a kind of violent interaction?
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, Professor Funke ----
 8 MR IRVING:     We have moved on.
 9 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     --- don't let us spend time.
10 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 5.1.8, please? "Irving told
11journalists", towards the end of that paragraph, "'The
12result of this report is final. There was no mass murder
13with poison gas'"?
14 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     Do you accept that this was not a verbatim transcript of
16that particular press conference
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     It was not a what?
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     Verbatim transcript, it is not a worlaut protokol?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     There was no mass murder with poison gas. "Es gab keine
20Massentotung durch Giftgas".
21 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, but you accept that this is not necessarily a
22verbatim protocol of my actual words as spoken at that
23press conference
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, it is a summary, it seems to.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     A summary?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     And it shows by the way, if I may say, how link you with

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 1Karl Philipp and to the radical revisionist cause.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. Do you agree that my position at this trial has
 3always been that at Auschwitz there was no mass murder,
 4and I emphasise the word "mass" with poison gas?
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I know that you endorse the Fred Leuchter report and this
 6is at the basic of the difficulty for the German, for the
 7German authorities, because it hurts the people who
 8survived the Holocaust at the very place.
 9 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, 5.1.10 -- I am sorry.
10 MR RAMPTON:     I am sorry. One skips as usual, one has leapt
11over the difficult bit without booking beneath one's feet
12as one has gone. At the top of page 55 there is some
13dialogue between Mr Irving and a journalist which has been
14translated into English, fortunately. I draw attention to
15Mr Irving's last answer and the last sentence of that last
16answer and to the plural which he uses.
17 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Do you want to ask a question about that,
18Mr Irving?
19 MR IRVING:     I have already asked the question which is does the
20witness accept this was not a verbatim transcript, my
21Lord, and that being so ----
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This is verbatim now.
23 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Please, Professor Funke, that really is not
24an answer, is it? Either you are correctly quoted or you
25are incorrectly quoted. What you are quoted as having
26said is that "It is the defamation of the German people if

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