Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 51 - 55 of 204

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    The witness was cut off he said intense, brittle
 1but intense, is that right.
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Thank you very much.
 3 MR IRVING:     Well, in the sense that our relations with Adolf
 4Hitler during World War II were brittle but intense, is
 5that correct?
 6 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     This comparison does not hold.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, do not dealt with it at length because I
 8do not think it helps either.
 9 MR IRVING:     Paragraph ----
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Because may I add that I not caught into a wrong
11perception of my answer, it was intense co-operation based
12on the interaction with Zundel and others, and also, as
13I said, the Kuhnen connection, with which Althans has also
14very intense relationships at that time. So they often
15came twice, like both of these groups or persons, to the
16same meetings where you attended. So I see this
17collection of references that show that you have problems
18with him more on a tactical basis, you know. You said he
19is unprofessional, he did wrong invitations. So...
20 MR IRVING:     Horrendous?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Or he messed the things up. So, with respect to your
22efficiency to put your things down to the German audience,
23yes, he was not efficient, but because of the contents you
24shared it was at the beginning and in the coming year, you
25know, at the beginning, a very helpful and very intense
26relationship and co-operation.

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 1 Q. [Mr Irving]     Until one learns more about the man and then you tend to
 2break away from someone, would that be possible?
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, of course.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes. In paragraph 5.1.5, you mentioned once again there
 5incidentally, Professor Funke, the name of "Kuhnen". You
 6do accept that I have never met Kuhnen, never had a single
 7word exchanged with him and never written to him?
 8 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     He has already accepted that.
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I have to even question this because I do not know, but
10there are hints that, for example, but, you know -- your
11Lordship, am I allowed just to do ----
12 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     We dealt with this yesterday.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
14 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I have the impression that you accept you
15have got no evidence that Mr Irving has met Kuhnen or
16corresponded with Kuhnen?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     They were at the same march. That is not getting
18slippery. He was on the same march, maybe only two or 20
19minutes, you know, you do not know ----
20 MR IRVING:     Which march was this?
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- he was in the same meeting of the march to the
22Vertherren Halle, the famous, the second famous, as you
23say, and he was, so far the records are there, he was --
24Kuhnen was at the 3rd March '90. But as long as we do
25not -- it is, you know, these groups are conspiracy.
26 MR IRVING:     Conspiratorial.

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Conspiratorial. These groups, the Kuhnen connection, one
 2of their main points is to act conspiratorially. So they
 3use you as a kind of the most political outsider, as
 4Christian Worch told it in the letter in June '90, so
 5there was a special interaction. So this conspiratorial
 6things, you even are not in their perception allowed to
 7talk about this event, what really happened at 3rd
 8March '90. So you even from their perspective had to
 9sanitize your diary. There is nothing about the whole
10event at 3rd March of '90, and the lie. So there is,
11I just have to say it, I have just to say that there are
12sources that said Kuhnen, Worch and Mr Irving were there,
13but, you know, as long as we have not the ----
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     We are going to look at the sources later.
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- definitive proof, I have to be cautious at that.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, he is not on the list.
17 MR IRVING:     Kuhnen?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I did not know.
20 MR IRVING:     Is Kuhnen not ----
21 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He was on the list.
22 MR IRVING:     He was on the list yesterday, I believe.
23 MR RAMPTON:     That is a mistake. I mean, I will have in the end
24to be guided by the evidence of the witness. If the
25witness, under pressure from Mr Irving, refuses to concede
26that the link between Althans and Kuhnen is illusory,

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 1well, then he has to go on the list.
 2 MR IRVING:     It is the link between me and Kuhnen that we are
 3interested in.
 4 MR RAMPTON:     I do not find that very difficult either, I have
 5to say.
 6 MR IRVING:     My Lord, on a point of law, I would like to be
 7reminded of here, if a grave allegation is made in libel,
 8do we have to expect an enhanced degree of proof and it is
 9not just the balance of probabilities.
10 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     I am not quite sure why you raise that point
11now, but the answer is yes.
12 MR IRVING:     I just wanted to remind myself, in other words,
13what I can now be confident your Lordship is paying
14attention to.
15 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     At the moment it seems to me that the link
16with Kuhnen is extremely tenuous and if there are not
17better fish to fry, if I can put it that way, then I am
18not impressed. I really think we must move on.
19 MR IRVING:     Paragraph 5.15, we have Remer who is one of the
20people on the list. Will you accept just in two lines or
21one line that this July 22nd meeting with General Remer on
22the evidence which has been before the court, do you have
23it, Professor Funke? It is on page 53.
24 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
25 Q. [Mr Irving]     At this meeting with Remer at Flotto was a conversation
26with him for the purpose of interviewing him for my

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 1Goebbels biography.
 2 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, it seems so, yes, and you did attend later on as
 3I see.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes, and although we have seen evidence that he may have
 5been in the audience of some meetings I addressed, there
 6is no other evidence of contact between us?
 7 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far I see, yes.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     Paragraph 5.1.5, when I in line 2 of that describe
 9somebody as being a bit of a right-wing friend of someone,
10a rather right-wing friend, does that ----
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Where is it?
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     Line 2 of paragraph 5.1.5.
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     If I described somebody as being a rather right-wing
15friend of somebody, does that tell you something about my
16attitude to right-wingers?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     It does not? Does it not imply that I hold right-wingers
19at arm's length slightly?
20 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     No. There are other statements that you describe yourself
21as a right-winger, but we come to that later.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     5.1.6, this demonstration, this little
23demonstration, which organize rather wickedly outside the
24German Sender Freies Berlin ----
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     

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