Irving v. Lipstadt


Holocaust Denial on Trial, Trial Transcripts, Day 28: Electronic Edition

Pages 41 - 45 of 204

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    You describe it. So I would just, if I may, I would just
 1very intense at that time.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- why do you say --
 3 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Because of the Zundel connections he had and the
 4Philipp -- and all the bunch of people you referred at
 5that time.
 6 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- why do you describe the event in Dresden as being
 7curious --
 8 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I did not say "curious", furious. It was a furious
 9success for you in your own perception.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Furious?
11 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Great, big, big success.
12 Q. [Mr Irving]     -- on the diary of January 28th 1990 shows he organized it
13with the "cultur director", the cultur manager of the city
14of Dresden, did he not?
15 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Right.
16 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which is what I would expect a young man do for me, to act
17as my kind of manager and go out and organize these
18meetings, and he was organizing meetings with the
19municipal authority of Dresden. But he is not dealing
20with skinhead organizations, or extreme right-wing groups,
21he is dealing with the proper authorities?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     He did it both.
23 Q. [Mr Irving]     But eventually we fell out, did we not, for a whole number
24of reasons?
25 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
26 Q. [Mr Irving]     Reasons for honesty and so on, I do not want to go into

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 1the details?
 2 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     No, but when?
 3 MR IRVING:     I would have to look at the diaries and see. Let
 4me read on.
 5 MR RAMPTON:     According to the diary entries we have here,
 6certainly not until towards the end of 1994.
 7 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Well, that is my impression.
 8 MR IRVING:     1991, in March 23rd 1991, do you have that entry?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     This again shows that Althans lied to us. He dos not care
11if we get arrested. This was the famous Leuchter
12congress. He had made arrangements. He lied us to us
13about what we were permitted to do under the law. What
14arrangements he made with the police. He was negotiating
15the whole time with the police, was he not, in Germany?
16The whole time? He was doing things in a legal way?
17 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     But, again, see the context.
18 Q. [Mr Irving]     I beg your pardon?
19 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     See the context. I mean this was quite an event of
20hardcore revisionists, including some of the worst we have
21in Europe, Peter Varela.
22 Q. [Mr Irving]     Mr ----
23 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Mr Ahmed Remer.
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     --- Althans had rented the Deutsches Museum. Is that a
25very prestigious building in Munich?
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Yes, and the problems became not because he has rented as

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 1a person for scientific Congress, but because of the scope
 2and of the content of this so-called Leuchter, Fred
 3Leuchter Congress.
 4 Q. [Mr Irving]     Yes.
 5 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So the authorities said this cannot be, it is not in line
 6with the law that forbids Holocaust denier to state, to
 7stage as was done.
 8 Q. [Mr Irving]     How did the authorities know what was going to be said?
 9 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Oh.
10 Q. [Mr Irving]     Did they decide in advance to ban meetings because they
11are frightened that people may come out with politically
12incorrect views or what?
13 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I think the Munich authorities at that time knew a lot
14because of the experience of the year before.
15 Q. [Mr Irving]     But you agree that Althans was trying to do things in a
16responsible way? He had rented one of the most
17prestigious lecture theatres in Munich. He organised
18speakers to come along. The lecture theatre then violated
19the contract, is that correct, forcing the meeting to be
20held outside in the open air on the steps with the
21permission of the police, is that a correct summary?
22 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     I do not know. I do not see -- no, I would disagree with
24 Q. [Mr Irving]     Which part do you disagree with? I cannot allow you to
25disagree without asking you why.
26 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The whole perception of this scenery you described in your

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 1sentences, I cannot go with it. I know that, according to
 2your diary, he, Althans, was not careful enough to
 3circumvent this kind of interaction with the police and
 4then this ban to speak there and the decision of the
 5Museum to speak there because they knew what will come.
 6So, if I may say, if I would have, if I would have done it
 7I would have been in the same problems, technical
 8problems, Althans went into because of the content of it.
 9Believe me, it is not, it is a technical problem that he
10cannot do it. It is not, the real problem is that the
11whole Leuchter Congress was so disgusting and so against
12the law we had and we have that it could not work by any
14 Q. [Mr Irving]     These are the laws for suppression of free speech in
15Germany, is that correct? It is not against any kind of
16regular laws as accepted, for example, in the United
17States or in England?
18 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Mr Irving, I think when you asked almost
19exactly the same question about 45 minutes ago, I said
20I do not think that helps, so it is not going to help now.
21 MR IRVING:     Let me try to explain what I am trying to get at.
22If Mr Althans tries to do things the proper way, he rents
23the most prestigious lecture theatre, he organizes
24speakers like myself to come and speak on Churchill and
25Pearl Harbour, that was my topic, was it not? Was that my
26topic that day?

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 1 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     So far you said it and according to the video.
 2 Q. [Mr Irving]     And does the correspondence not also show that that is my
 3topic that day, my prearranged topic?
 4 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     The topic of the Congress was the hardcore Holocaust
 5denials meeting in Munich and to changing, as Althans put
 6it, very politically in his views, in his views, "We will
 7stop with kind of defence revisionism. Now it is time to
 8umdenken, to think anew" ----
 9 THE INTERPRETER:     To rethink?
10 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     --- "to rethink for the revolution", so this is something.
11 MR IRVING:     But now?
12 A. [Dr Hajo Funke]     Again I have just to remind you and with, if I may, your
13Lordship, just two sentences about the again and again
14posed question. It is not just a freedom of expression,
15but you have the constitution.
16 MR JUSTICE GRAY:     Professor Funke, I totally understand what
17Mr Irving is suggesting and what your response is on that,
18so I think we must move on because this is getting ----
19 MR IRVING:     The position I am trying to get the witness to
20understand, and your Lordship has not yet received this
21and it will now come. In view of the fact that the
22contract was violated, we were, therefore, the organizers
23were forced in conformity with the police to move the
24meeting to the outside which is a more extreme position,
25is it not? They are no longer meeting in the comfort of a
26lecture theatre but they are out on the street?

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